Thursday night brought us the one and only Vice Presidential debate of the 2012 cycle between Vice President Joe Biden and Congressman Paul Ryan. The debate took place at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky. The moderator was Martha Raddatz, ABC’s Chief Foreign Correspondent.

Watch the complete 90 minute video:

Transcript: Full VP Debate Transcript (Updated link to CPD transcript)

Original Air Date: Thursday, October 11, 2012

Report from Fox News:

Paul Ryan opened the vice presidential debate Thursday with tough criticism of the Obama administration over its handling of the Libya terror attack, suggesting it was “projecting weakness” with its response.
“What we are watching on our TV screens is the unraveling of the Obama foreign policy,” Ryan said on the debate stage in Kentucky.

Biden was quick to retort: “With all due respect, that’s just a bunch of malarkey,” he said. “This talk about this weakness, I don’t understand what my friend’s talking about.”

After President Obama’s lackluster debate last week, the pressure was on Biden to recapture the momentum – while equally on Ryan to prevent the Obama ticket from blunting Romney’s surge.

With the moderator, ABC News’ Martha Raddatz, opening the debate with a question about the Libya strike, which happened a month ago Thursday, Ryan criticized the administration for waiting more than a week after the strike to call it a coordinated terror attack.

“This is becoming more troubling by the day. They first blamed the YouTube video. Now they’re trying to blame the Romney/Ryan ticket for making this an issue,” he said. Ryan was referring to a claim by an Obama aide earlier Thursday that the only reason the attack had entered the political debate was because of Romney’s criticism – a claim Romney rejected.

Vice President Biden was indeed aggressive as the Obama campaign had predicted ahead of time. Congressman Ryan seemed to take the first 10 to 15 minutes to gain his footing but settled in and became a bit more aggressive in response.

The next Presidential Debate between President Obama and Governor Romney is on Tuesday, October 16.

384 COMMENTS

  1. Anyone who says that Joe Biden was not effective is just wishful thinking. He took control of the debate, just as Mitt Romney did last week. I do not agree with Obama / Biden on a fundamental level, but I have to admit he was on his “A game”.

    Supposedly, VP debates don’t matter. We will see if this changes the polls any

    • Ryan was simply outgunned. He sounded positively childish on foreign policy but that’s no surprise. Like Romney, he has zero experience in that department.

      He also sounded weak on economic issues – supposedly his strong suit. He refused to offer any specifics on the Romney/Ryan plan to cut $5 trillion in taxes mostly benefiting the very rich. He could not defend the idea of taking a wrecking-ball to Medicare in order to finance these tax cuts.

      He could not defend his record of supporting every one of President Bush’s big-spending, deficit-exploding policies. He could not defend the tea party radicalism that has turned the U.S. House of Representatives into a circus side-show.

      Ryan was just bad. He does deserve credit for being an earnest young man who isn’t nearly as Nixonian as Romney is, though.

      • Steve….where’s Obama’s experience in foreign policy? And I guess you missed the Presidential debate where the entire country learned that Obama was taking the wrecking ball to Medicare and Romney was going to repair the damage and even explained why. Romney also explained how to get the country running money through it again. Guess you either missed it or didn’t understand clear, truthful speaking.

        • What’s Obama’s foreign policy experience? Uh, how about the past four years of being President of the United States?! My lord, what a ridiculous question.

          And President Obama is NOT taking a wrecking bill to Medicare. I gather you don’t understand what he’s done with health care at all, but you believe the lies that Romney has told you about it.

    • Very few voters are going to change at this point in time, kind of like a jury, their minds are made up long befor the show begins.

  2. I WAS REALLY ON THE FENCE , SEEING BIDEN (WHICH SEEM TO HAVE MISSED HIS ADHD MEDS. SEEMED AROGANT, COCKY AND INTERUPPTED SO MANY TIMES. i HARDLY COULD HEAR WHAT RYAN WANTED TO SAY.. SAD.. AND HIS TEETH WAY TO WHITE.. LIKE SOMEONE WITH ADHD COULDNTS SIT , AND WAIT FOR RYAN TO TALK , IT WAS TERRIBLE TO SEE

    • Kate

      On behalf of the people who read comments and attempt to make meaningful conversations, I would like to thank you for Insulting a man and the improper use of brackets. Comments such as yours allow to process of having a civilized conversation next to impossible. If you wish to make a point about his interruptions please do so in a respectful manner. Also your attacks on him by insinuating that he has a serious mental condition is both demeaning to you and insulting to the people who actually suffer from this condition. It is shameful that you bring up a serious disorder against a man simply because you did not like him. Disagree with him, comment on the interruptions, but do not make light of a disorder in order to mock or attack somebody. You horrible person

      Hopefully this message will help in allowing further Peaceful and decent conversations. Although speaking as I am to someone who has the full anonymity of the internet this probably will not happen.

      Still hoping for a brighter and more positive discussion on these issues
      Zac

      PS. Using all caps make your comment sound silly and weak. Have faith in your own words don’t simply use caps as a way to compensate for shallow arguments.

      PPS Chris thank you for your insight I’m glad that even those that are against someone can still find something nice to say about people.

      • you mean you did read all of it…right. try connecting with the comments you agree will. lets support each other for a common cause not judge the writing of someone because it is not the way you might express yourself….

        • There’s a slight problem when people are that ineffective at trying to communicate; if someone’s grammar and spelling is that bad, and they can’t make a clear and precise point (at least to a certain degree), it can be hard to overlook.

          • Jacque: Excellent point. I usually don’t point out spelling errors, unless they change the meaning. But one guy this week was calling us idiots–so I pointed out that misspelling half of his words made HIM look like the idiot.

            I used to teach English, and I did tell the students that the main goal was to get a point across. However, (a) poor spelling and grammar makes the writer look uneducated–which then makes us doubt that he knows what he is talking about. But there’s also (b) a matter of respect. It is more difficult to understand a post if we have to guess what words he is trying to spell, or how the words are supposed to relate to one another.

            • Something you would never see me doing as I can’t spell kat. If it were not for the spell check I wouldn’t be on here. But I do agree Mr Behr in that you only do it in a constructive way thus far, LOL.

            • Zac, Pete, and Jacque:

              I do try to be constructive, but doggonit, English is a second language to Billy, and we have to keep schooling the boy. That’s why they call him Hillbilly Malone.

              [Disregard the duplication on page 3]

            • Oh, I saw your comment to disregard a wee bit late. Agreed though; no one wants to just take a best guess at what someone else is trying to say exactly, as that can lead to misunderstandings.

            • Billy: This one works, too:

              “I grew up believing
              God keeps his eye on us all
              And he used to lean upon me
              As I pledged allegiance to the wall”

            • Billy: I’ve always loved that line.

              All across America, little kids being forced to parrot words they don’t understand, in unison, in order to barinwash them that they should never question the current government in power (“right or wrong”).

              How many of us even know that the holy pledge was really just a commercial SALES PITCH TO SELL FLAGS? Look it up.

    • If you press the “caps lock” button, you can make it so you can type lower case letters so you don’t look like an ignorant, uneducated 13 year old yelling through a computer. If you already knew that, then you’re an ignorant, uneducated grown up who shouldn’t post on political posts considering your inability to use correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Good luck with your high school midterms coming up! Make sure to study extra long on your english one.

    • @KATE-
      Biden doesn’t know anything about your ADHD meds the same way you don’t understand Foreign Policy. You couldn’t hear Ryan because he’s an amateur and was muted (or “interrupted”) by Biden to quiet his BS.

      If you’re too distracted by his teeth, you have no business commenting.

  3. Ryan didn’t do as good. He had more of what he was thinking. As for Biden, he was quoting more facts. Biden had great points in most of what he was saying.

  4. If you win a debate by shouting the opposition down, Joe Biden won. If you win a debate by being the smiling contestant, Joe Biden won. If you win a debate by being rude and interrupting the oppositions’ replies, Joe Biden won. But if you win a debate by keeping your cool with a talking fool, Paul Ryan won.

    • Hmm…Rude, interrupting, shouting down the opposition, overly smiling…why does that sound familiar? Oh yeah!! Romney did all of that in the debate last week! Only with less facts and specifics, and more desperation.

    • Ryan got clobbered because he’s part of a campaign that has no respect for the truth.

      The entire Romney campaign is based on lies about the president’s record. That’s easy to sell to lazy, gullible Faux News viewers. It’s not so easy to sell to someone who actually knows what he’s talking about like Vice President Biden.

      Ryan kept trying to revert to Romney’s anti-factual talking points and Biden kept zapping him with the truth laser. That’s all.

      Don’t blame Biden for making Ryan check his BS at the door. Blame Romney & Ryan for choosing to model their campaign on Nixon’s presidency.

      • It seems to me that the Romney Ryan ticket has focused largely on jobless numbers, which are not lies, unless the Obama administration is lying about the record of consecutive months over 8% unemployment, or the number of people who have simply disappeared from job rolls, or the average income of Americans dropping $4000. Romney didn’t make those up, Obama’s bureaucrats produced those numbers.

        Really though, it feels like the country is ready to move on. We don’t need more government, and what I’ve been hearing is Romney/Ryan promising to get out of the way.

        For the record, I don’t have cable and don’t watch Fox News, so assuming people who disagree with you must be inferior in some way and blaming it on a News organization you consider to be less valuable is sophistry. Ideas are the solution. Debate the ideas and their results. Look at history. Show me a country in the history of the world that has prospered with over 20% GDP going to government. I haven’t found one yet, but am open to learning.

        • @Chad:
          Jobs LOST during Bush’s last year: 4.5 million
          Jobs GAINED during the last 30 months under Obama: 5 million

          We’ve added jobs in every single one of the last 30 months. Are these the jobs numbers Romney/Ryan are focusing on? I think not.

          The Romney/Ryan jobs argument only holds water if you believe human history began on January 20, 2009. Otherwise, their plan to return to Bushonomics is foolish on its face.

          Republicans are desperate to wish away the Bush years and present themselves as a “new alternative”. Well, they can’t and they aren’t. Romney & Ryan are selling nothing but the same old “deregulate, cut taxes for the rich, pray for trickle-down” story Republicans have always tried to sell. We tried that with Bush and it was a colossal failure.

          The primary strategy of the Republicans has always been to try and pin the Great Recession and/or its inevitable after-effects on President Obama. Never mind that THEY led the country into this mess in the first place. It’s a pitiful and dishonest strategy.

          Speaking of dishonesty, maybe you haven’t done any fact-checking of Romney. Maybe you didn’t notice that his central campaign themes have been based on outright lies about the president: doubled the deficit, gutted work requirements in welfare, “you didn’t build that”, etc. This stuff is easy to check. There’s no excuse for being hornswaggled by Romney, even if you happen to agree with his positions (whatever they are) or like his flip-floppiness.

          The other main branch of the Romney campaign involves mind-reading. Romney says constantly that the president “doesn’t understand America” and “has an entitlement mentality”. These are just sleazy, totally unsubstantiated cheap shots. It’s the kind of low-brow garbage I’d expect from a Rush Limbaugh or a Michael Moore, not from a Republican presidential candidate.

          I don’t think I even need to get into Romney flip-flops on everything from abortion to gun control to climate change. Even Republicans admit that Romney is, in Rudy Giuliani’s words, “a man without a core, a man without substance, a man who will say anything to become president of the United States.”

          (And by the way, here are a few countries with higher federal spending as a percentage of GDP than the U.S. You tell me if they’re prosperous or not: Switzerland, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Netherlands, UK, Canada, Japan, Luxembourg, Australia, Israel. In fact, almost all of the most prosperous countries on earth spend more than the U.S.)

          • Jobs lost….Bush’s fault or the terrorists that bombed the United States. Stop blaming Bush’s skill for the economy.
            And by the way, stop calling Romney a liar, it’s low class. Stick to the debates and not to news station opinions and gossip.

            • Romney’s entire campaign is based on lies. I listed several specific lies in my post above. Should we Americans just sit by stupidly and swallow whatever BS our politicians feed us? Do you think that would make this country a better place?

              No, Romney is a liar and he needs to be held accountable for it. We don’t need another Nixon in this country.

      • The Presidents record is most definitely a mess. But I will have to admit that Romney seems
        shady and unplanned. Obama has plans but the ones he’s telling you about are either lies or misrepresented plans. By the way… Obama can possibly be his own man. He more like a hired gun. He’s doing some ones Biding. And I’m not saying that Romney Isn’t.

    • And if you win a debate with facts and not bald-faced lies, then Joe Biden won.

      🙂 Also by that standard, Rmoney certainly did not “win”.

    • I couldnt agree more. Biden was quite rude at times. The other thing I noticed was how many times he kept saying that Ryan/Romney were telling lies or straight out called him a liar. Ryan did not do so instead tried to come back with facts or ideas. Do we really want someone who is so rude and in your face to serve us like that???? How many wars could he start with that attitude?

      • Well, in the almost 4 years so far, apparently 0 wars.

        Did you forget all the gaffes that Romney made on his little international tour just a couple months ago already? He didn’t even just offend people who already do not like us very much, but he managed to offend allies. *cough* Britain *cough*

  5. Ordinarily, vice presidential debates don’t matter. People do NOT vote for the vice president. If they did, when Lloyd Bentsen destroyed Dan Quayle’s entire future with one line would have cost GHW Bush the election in 1988. [That’s a good thing, since GHW Bush was one of our finer presidents.]

    HOWEVER, I believe this debate WILL give Obama a bump in the polls, because they were not just talking about their job as vice president, they were talking about the administration, and he will go into the next presidential debate with a slight lead.

  6. Joe Biden might be a bit rude, but he was clearly on his game tonight from the beginning. VP debates are very interesting because they touch on more specific questions that are more interesting then a general debate on Domestic and Foreign Policies.

    • I have yet to hear anything clear from Obama…and you mention Biden was rude..’but’? Since when is rude clear minded, professional or alright with being a leader of a country? I’ll bet he’s a peach to live with and he shouldn’t have power over our country. I think you ought to study Obama’s philsophy in his book as well. I love how so many people are ignoring what he’s up to. Try loving our country and fellow men enough to stop supporting someone who doesn’t.

  7. Biden interrupted way too much, which may come across to some people as confident and taking control of the debate, when really it’s lack of emotional control.
    Ryan has more solid facts, numbers and examples to support his points. I would rather have Ryan as the president’s right hand man and backup president, hands down….no contest.

    • So when Romney kept interrupting the moderator and Obama, and was talking over both of them last week, that wasn’t rude? Or showed a lack of control? Absolutely it did. He was desperate, and overly aggressive and gave “facts” that were later debunked and no specifics. Biden had a wealth of facts and has a wealth of experience and completely trumped a scared looking Ryan. Biden is the winner no contest there! And don’t you think its weird that your candidate has completely switched his platform in the last few weeks? I mean, which Romney are you going to vote for? And if he no longer espouses what you believe, are you still going to vote for him? What a flip flopper! Even more so than the GOP painted Kerry put to be 2004. Please.

    • emotional control? Ryan solid facts? you were watching the same debate right? You must be a wealthy upper class American hoping your boy Mitty can pull a rabbit out of his hat for this election.. Best of luck.. HOPE

    • What, Republicans can dish it but can’t take it? Suck it up, it’s your very own medicine. And saying that Ryan had ‘solid facts, numbers and examples’ is about as ludicrous as Paul Ryan actually having those things.

  8. What the heck happen tonight, can we watch a more civilized debate, I wish Mr Biden would not have been so rude and sure he wanted to destabilize Mr Ryan and he succeeded , so what was the issue , who knows.
    It was just a planned puppet show, I should have never stop watching the Yankees and the Orioles and great they must have known that I wanted to watch the games and now in extra innings, I can.

  9. I think Paul Ryan was very serious about the problems that faces our country from Economy to Foreign affairs, where Biden just came off like he thinks everything is a joke, and his finger pointing at the mod was rude, and I would have appreciated hearing what Paul had to say, but Joe kept cutting him off and interrupting, So I am going to say Paul Ryan won, he was a gentleman and this was his first debate, Joe came off very rude and out of touch.

    • Romney & Ryan have been lying about President Obama and Vice-President Biden for years. You’d be pretty punchy if you were in Biden’s shoes, too. I’m glad he didn’t let Ryan get away with it tonight. Ryan deserved a good schooling and he got it.

      • Not sure how someone can say Romney and Ryan have been telling lies about Obama. Realistic citizens recognize that both parties are spinning information to present themselves as the right choice. However, there are simple facts that our Country is dealing with today. 1) Our congress and Executive Branch have never been so divided from lack of leadership 2) we have never seen so much debt put on our children 3) our government has never been so big 4) there is no fix in sight and 5) we seem to blame it on everyone but our leader.

        I don’t know, maybe you can call those lies.

        • Dan, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just started paying attention to the Romney campaign yesterday. Here are a few of the outright lies Romney has built his campaign around. All of these claims are easy to fact-check. All are 100% false.

          “The president went around the world on an ‘apology tour’.”
          “The president doubled the deficit.”
          “The president spent $90 billion on wind and solar.”
          “5 independent studies show that my tax plan adds up”.
          “The Affordable Care Act is going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have.”

          Also don’t forget the deceitful way Romney edited the president’s speech on the value of community to get his “you didn’t build that” slogan. Totally dishonest.

          And when Romney says “the president doesn’t understand America” and “the president has an entitlement mentality”, that’s just low-brow sleaze designed to stir up the trashiest segments of the Republican base.

          You haven’t been paying attention.

          There is a lack of leadership in this country – in Congress. The do-nothing Republicans there have behaved disgracefully over the past 4 years. Filibusters, blocked appointments, knee-jerk opposition to everything, propagating outright lies about “death panels” and the like, saying their “top priority was making Obama a one-term president”.

          The Big Lie that all Republicans have engaged in is their attempt to pin the Great Recession of 2007-2009 and its inevitable aftereffects on President Obama. It is beyond pathetic that a group of people who claim to be leaders refuse to take responsibility for what happened to the nation’s economy ON THEIR WATCH.

          Republicans, not Democrats, controlled the White House from 2001-2009. Republicans, not Democrats, controlled Congress for most of 1995-2007. During that time, Wall Street banks were allowed to endanger the entire economy with their reckless multi-trillion dollar poker game. Republicans sat on their hands the entire time, even assuring us that Wall Street could be trusted to regulate itself.

          In 2006, the housing bubble peaked and began to deflate. Wall Street’s dangerous poker game was bigger than ever. Republicans were in complete control of the government. We all know what happened next.

          These Republicans aren’t leaders. They represent the very worst of the American political system. They need to go, and the sooner the better.

        • Steve touched on many of your points and gave you an excellent response; I wanted to respond to your assertion that government has never been so big, as that is an utter lie. Democrats have not talked about it, but all the jobs they’ve created have been in the private sector, and the number of government jobs and contracts (unnecessary jobs, ‘pork’ as a Republican would call it) have actually decreased a good amount (especially relative to the heavy increases during the Bush administration). Not only are the numbers true (if you look at them), but I know from personal experience as well (I worked as a contractor for roughly a year a couple of years ago, before deciding it wasn’t for me); I have many friends that remained in civil service and as DoD contractors who are now dealing with the cutbacks (some have moved to the private sector already).

    • I felt the same way about Romney last week; rude, interrupting, with an over done desperate smile. And Biden won, hands down. He was credible, cited sources and facts, and was passionate, empathetic and friendly. He soundly trumped Ryan.

    • Ryan may have been “serious,” but he gave no solutions nor specifics on anything. Just because he maintained his composure doesn’t mean he won anything. He should thank Joe for cutting him off because he saved him a ton of embarrassment from not being able to give a real answer.

  10. Ryan was just out of his league against Biden. Part of the problem is that he’s being forced to defend Mitt Romney. That would challenge anyone.

    Mitt is a “moderate with progressive views” (his words). Mitt is “severely conservative” (his words). Mitt “believes that abortion should be safe and legal in this country” (his words). Mitt is “pro-life” (his words).

    See the problem? Mitt, like Tricky Dick Nixon, is a black box. He’s a “perfectly lubricated weathervane”, as Republican Governor Jon Huntsman put it. Or, as Rudy Giuliani’s put it, “Romney is a man without a core. This is a man without substance. This is a man who will say anything to become president of the United States.”

    We have a black box running against the president who led the way in preventing a 2nd Great Depression, saving the U.S. auto industry, going from 750,000 job losses per month to 140,000 job gains per month, decimating al Qaeda, liquidating bin Laden, ending the war in Iraq, winding down the war in Afghanistan, strengthening healthcare security for middle and working class Americans, ensuring fair pay for women, defending the rights of women to govern their own uteruses, ensuring equal rights for soldiers irregardless of sexual preference, ending the policy of punishing immigrant children for the misdeeds of their parents.

    I don’t see how this race is even remotely close. I feel sorry for Paul Ryan.

  11. Romney is good at some things. He did make a lot of money for himself. He was very good at that. He has done an excellent job of shielding it from taxation by stashing it in the Cayman Islands and Swiss bank accounts. He did a fine job of strip-mining companies at Bain. He did a great job of avoiding service in Vietnam by running away to France.

    Romney has done an excellent job of lying shamelessly about President Obama’s record (gutted work requirements in welfare, doubled the deficit, spent $90 billion on wind and solar, “You didn’t build that”, Obama doesn’t understand America, Obama has an entitlement mentality etc). I guess those last two examples were more schoolyard smears.

    Romney didn’t do so well with the Olympics. Needed a federal bailout. Romney wasn’t invited back for a second term as Governor of MA. He was 47th in job creation in MA. He won’t come close to winning his home state this year.

    Romney should go back to Wall Street. He was good at that. He wouldn’t be a good president (Nixon fans will disagree).

  12. Romney was a Vietnam-draft-dodging chicken hawk. He has less than zero credibility on foreign policy. Paul Ryan has zero foreign policy experience. He also lacks credibility on the issue.

    But at least Paul Ryan didn’t insult our troops by calling them deadbeats who “refuse to take personal responsibility for their lives” like Romney did. That was indefensible. Romney is no leader.

    • Steve, your right 100% Obama is also a draft dodger as well as born out of the USA! Barrack Obama and Romney both disgraced our Military and Veterans including myself personally. Barrack more so…depleting the armed forces is just not a option. He has taken my pay away for the last two years. It makes me upset to know I spent 30 years defending our country just to have the President and Vice just give it away. By the way there were over 170,000 draft dodgers. Hope you weren’t one! SCPO

    • Steve, I’ve not heard Romney call our troups deadbeats and don’t believe it. I have to say that being married to a military man has me close to how things are handled there…but a man who built the economy in America and helped us here isn’t a deadbeat. Not every man served. What did Obama do instead of serving for America? He’s downsizing our strength as a country which will simply invite terrorists here. He’s doing it on purpose to fulfill his father’s dream…read his book. And please tell me I’m not wasting my time reading the rants of a guy sitting in a recliner in front of tv news stations slurping down a 12 pack. We need clear minded American making our decisions.

      • Many of the 47% who Romney referred to as moochers who “refuse to take personal responsibility for their lives” are servicemembers. Many of this 47% are senior citizens living on Social Security. Many are simply working people who don’t make much money.

        Watch the Romney video where he says this stuff. It’s disgusting. He’s just another arrogant silver-spooner who was born on third and thinks he hit a triple.

        I say that a guy who insults 47% of America like that has no business running for president.

  13. VP Joe Biden did a excellent job. He actually sited his sources and provided specific details. VP Biden knew what he was talking about and was very passionate. Thank you.

  14. I do wonder if Biden had the questions in advance, because he was anwering them before she was even finished giving them, did anyone notice that? either way Biden just didnt look good, to interupting and weird gestures

  15. I pulled up a copy of the printed transcript of tonight’s debate. I added up the full lines. If there were partial lines, I added part lines together to make full lines.

    Here’s what I got:

    Biden: 480 lines

    Ryan: 508 lines

    That’s not saying more words mean more information. It’s just an accounting of the lines of words they were able to get into the debate.

  16. well being we were attacked and the administration lied to the american people, hugh cover up/scandal, Obama/Biden failed at national Security and Economy they loose President Mitt!

  17. The challenge, as a voter in this election, is to figure out who is telling the truth! Everyone talks like they at least believe what they are saying. But most of the time there is a nuance involved. Then there are other times when they know what they are saying is false, yet they portray it as truth. For me, I know I can’t trust the Presidency to a liar. That is why I am voting for Mitt Romney & Paul Ryan!!!

  18. My party told me exactly what they said they would and, it was exactly what I needed to hear so, my team has my vote. I tor one of my pom poms, damn.

  19. The debate was good, thought Biden was arrogant/cocky. He interrupted quite a bit, like a kid wanting to get his two cents in. Ryan maintained his cool, thought he handled himself pretty good, I liked his responses. Overall I feel like it could have gone either way, Biden played to the crowds tugged at heart strings, Ryan said what needed to be said, shot it straight, Nov 6th can’t get here soon enough!

  20. This was terribly biased. She didn’t have control. Biden was given to much leash and Ryan was never allowed to finish. How is interrupting winning? Ryan showed well in the debate. Biden looked desperate. When Ryan tried to bring his points home Biden continued to insult and interrupt. Then the host would change the subject. Ryan was spot on in all his answers.

  21. WOW could Biden be any ruder and full of hot air. The Lady just couldnt control Biden she sucked. I didnt hear the debate because Biden just a bunch of malarkey. He was ignorant, petulant, rude, and sounded like a broken Blame Game record.

  22. Just nothing but RESPECT for Biden, if US media continue to make fun of him in every disrespectful way, you guys are more than welcome to trade Joe with us for Geert Wilders… in case it seems things couldn’t get more worse…

    Some people here with their stupid nick names don’t see how Obama acts for the long term, they want short term solutions even if it would hurt their kids and grand- grand- grand children.Go ahead, choose Romney and the world will have more wars, more folks who have no dime to spend annymore because everything is waisted to Romney & his moron friends and their unstoppable greed for more, more, and much more money.Even a blind person can see that!
    No one could convinced me yet, but what good brings someone like Romney???

  23. My take:

    Two scumbags defending their boss, whose ultimate aim is to be King of USA.

    How sad — we are about to lose our Nation to one of these subhumans!

  24. Obama is an “abomination” to all republicans. I doubt even 0.01% will vote for him.

    With Ron Paul out of the Republican picture (by what most Republican Voters are UNAWARE was a Fascist-like brow-beating of duly elected Ron Paul delegates, and their subsequent removal by nefarious means at the DIRECTION of Mitt Rmoney) the majority of registered republicans will vote Republican.

    It is our job to educate them that Rmoney is NOT a True Republican, but a puppet of the Banking Cartels!

    Ron Paul was a Libertarian before he became republican — so now the torch has been passed to another Libertarian: GARY JOHNSON!

    All Independents, Democrats and Republicans MUST take a look at what Gary Johnson stands for!

    Vote for Gary Johnson — or submit to Dictatorship (there are no other options)!

  25. Steve your need to post 50 times to say joe won is a sham. This debate was about facts the fact America is out of work and Obummer chose the wrong version of Hillery care to pass.while he owned congress and the senate shows how out of touch he is. any first year economist knows you have to balance the books. Someone forgot to tell the chosen one. I mean dude even my black friends say they aren’t voting democrat this time. so just like jpe shouting and whineing dont win debates they are won on content. Obummer is the worst president since carter and if i had to chose id take carter over obummer. the man is just to far out of touch. and joe well he is a peice of work rude whiney and king baby come to mind but he is not a real catholic and in the end god will have his ass.

    • Haha, good reading comprehension. Steve in fact, *used* facts to respond to people making incorrect assumptions and statements. Clearly you did not actually read up on any of them, and already possess misinformation. And you’re part of what’s wrong with America, if you truly equate honest discourse (and incredibly civil for that matter) to being a “sham”.

  26. The arrogance and demeaning and mean spirited attitude of Biden would unsettle anyone. Imagine laughing at someone when they are speaking. The cruelty of the Obama campaign seems to have more presidency on than on facts and on being challenged.

    You have a President who bows down to murderers and condones humiliating a serious American who is running for the Vice Presidency to help his own country. I would love to have Obama and Biden in Syria when the attack happened and before they were murdered, they were raped and then have their wives apologize on national TV for inciting a riot. Together they are absolutely worse then the snake the represented satan in the Garden of Eden. May God judge them for all the lies and abuse they have committed together consciously.

    • Joyce, you Rush Limbaugh worshipers amuse me. Biden is a big meanie, eh? Biden is demeaning? And in your next sentence you accuse the President of the United States of “bowing down to murderers”? You are a joke.

      This is the president who brought bin Laden’s head back in a plastic bag. This is the president who decimated al Qaeda. This is the president who brought our troops home from the stupidest, most unnecessary war the U.S. has ever gotten itself mired in.

      You are no American. You should move to Pakistan where your anti-American sentiments would be appreciated.

    • Oh really? And Romney isn’t arrogant and demeaning towards people? Or wait, does him “caring” about only 53% voters suffice for you? Because, I mean, that technically constitutes a majority, right? That’s great, that’s exactly what I want; a President that only cares about those that he can sway to elect him, and not the entire country he is supposed to help govern. Also, I’ve got news for you; once he’s got the power, your interests no longer mean squat, unless you can continue to “contribute” (which usually means large corporate amounts of money to the Romney/Ryan types), I’m sure.

      Oh, and let’s not mention his own cruelty of cutting people’s wages and jobs for a living, or even the testaments to his intolerance towards gay classmates (or sometimes simply those different in manners/appearance) as a teenager?

      And are we talking about the same Romney who supports more war (Iran), and acts like we still live in the Soviet era (Russia is our number one enemy, really?)?

      Oh right. He wouldn’t be and isn’t *really* a murderer if he gets to send other people in to die and do the dirty work, right? I mean, just because you support something, chair bills in support of additional unnecessary wars and all that, that doesn’t mean anything. He’s innocent.

      And need I repeat my first two paragraphs (if humiliation is the ‘issue’ you want to talk about)?

  27. Romney and Ryan want you to believe in their fantasy world where they have the magic formulas to create jobs, reduce the deficient, fix social security, Medicare and the tax code as well as make the Iranians, Syrians, Russians, Chinese and all terrorist groups obey their wishes. Romney and Ryan will wave their magic wands to create cooperation in Congress and eliminate the evils of Obamacare and Roe v Wade. Just because you want the world to be a certain way doesn’t make it so, we do not live in Disneyland. Can the adults please speak up!

    • Elliot….I have a great knowledge of business so I understand every word Romney has spoken. There’s no magic needed. How do you suppose our country has ever flourished when it did? The blood just needs to keep pumping so to speak…people need to be working and spending…it’s not magic.

      • Me too. The magic part is that Romney
        offers nothing different than what has been tried before. Insanity is defined as repeating the same behavior and expecting a different outcome.

  28. This was a brilliant debate.
    Biden kept Ryan in check, intimidated him with facts and experience, and when he was sure he had gained ground, he let Ryan mumble through his half-researched irrelevant answers to the question. Did you hear Ryan’s answer to what Martha should tell the decorated soldier? Appalling.

    Well done Biden. It was strategic of you to control the debate, to an extent some of reviewers here call “irritating”. You made the republicans look like the losers they are.

      • He laughed, because Romney/Ryan’s strategy is apparently to become bolder in their lies and attempts to mislead potential voters.

  29. sore loser lyin ryan and croonies of followers. when romney interrupted and bullied the debate with the president obama it was a great performance. however, when biden spanked and schooled eddie munster looking lyin ryan, it’s now bulling. he should thank joe biden for what he learned from the debate. you can’t debate someone that was actually present when certain events took place. lyin ryan and minni mitt do not have a five trillion tax cut plan. they have an outline and they will present it to congress if the winner (fat chance). the american people mostly middle class will become the barganing chips for the republican white house again (fat chance). that is why lyin ryan could not have an answer to the tax plan.

  30. and by the way, the next time they ask why you haven’t decreased the unemployment below 6%, tell them you spent the time doing two jobs:

    First, you spent the time stopping people from losing jobs caused by Bush’s irresponsible spending

    Second, you spent the time creating programmes that have have tried to create new jobs to bring unemployment to 8%.

    You spent more time saving jobs, so voice it out. Republicans if voted into power, they will make blunders again putting more millions of Americans (and possibly the world) at more risks.

  31. I wish he had left out all the “my friend”s. And some smiles (suggesting malarkey) were fine but he overdid it… Yet, he, like Obama, gave far more substantive comments and much more honest than the Pubs.

    • Over did it is a gross understatement. It was a calculated well known technique to imply dis-credibility without actually saying anything. The moderate did NOTHING to stop this mans attempt to manipulate the viewers.

      • The problem here is that Ryan IS completely lacking an ounce of credibility – possibly even more so than his flip-flopping running mate, given his public track record for completely lying.

      • David: What exactly would you have had her do? Should she also have chastised Ryan for smirking like the Cheshire cat?

        The moderator didn’t have to do anything. Biden was almost universally criticized for showing Ryan so little respect. But he wasn’t talking to YOU, anyway. He was playing to his base, and it worked. Up to that point, the Obama people were in despair.

  32. Can’t understand why anyone would be interested in what either of these two birds had to say. They both have track records and they suck. You vote for either, you deserve what you get, it’s hello Greece either way.

    • Billy: The interesting thing is that ROMNEY is the one who is promising everything to everyone, plus pushing for expensive weapons the military doesn’t even want, and they’re going to pay for it by reducing taxes even further.

      So if your concern is the debt, R&R are Greeks on steroids.

  33. I found something on another blog. I think it was a typo, but it was priceless:

    It called Ryan a Policy WANK.

    Bwah-ha-ha.

  34. I’m from Quebec and I think I might have a little bit of independance in my jugement just because of that.

    To me only one of the two said the truth. The young man is an easy teller just as he is reading a story that to me does seem to be all arranged. Who actually created this mess? The Bush government with 2 wars. If people has a little memory, before the bush administration, the global situation was good.

    Obama tries to clean up a mess that he had no idea how big it could be and moreover he had a bunch of republicans to prevent him from doing most of what he wanted to do.

    It looks like people think it takes only 4 years to correct 8 years of extreme war spendings..

      • Emily: Sounds as if you’re not quite sure if someone from Quebec is an American. Regardless, you’re wrong. Some people are interested in what people say who are not exactly like us.

      • This is the problem with our country, we are not isolationists Emily. We should listen to others even if you don’t agree with them. That includes others our decisions will affect. Also, you are committing a genetic fallacy here….think before you post.

      • Every foreigner who has commented (usually with substantive points) has been verbally assaulted by some ignoramus…. Ignoramuses that usually are in the Romney-Right-Winger-anyone-but-Obama-(because he’s black) camp.

        Oh, and by the way Emily (should I also not care and leave the ‘E’ uncapitalized?)…. Canadians became richer (average GDP per citizen) than US citizens a few months ago. *gasp* There are things we could possibly learn (and have before) from other countries!

      • ‘Scuze YOU Emily, but some of us in the Great White North are apparently paying more attention to your politics than you are (hey, if you guys elect another terrible one, we have to suffer too), and it’s an open forum.

  35. Biden did a fantastic job last night. That man, loser lyin ryan, did not have any thing substantial. No experience and no substances. Mitt and lyin are losing already. Kudos to Biden!

  36. I feel sorry for the democratic party that they have to work with and defend this guy. Putting all the facts, rhetoric, and issues aside, Biden proved to be obnoxious, immature and disrespectful. Who LAUGHS when anyone brings up a nuclear Iran? WHO?! Whether or not it’s true or will ever happen, it is still not humorous. Did Biden take control? Yep. But Ryan proved to be the grown-up here.

      • Ashley: I probably wouldn’t call Ryan an ass, but the word “smarmy” does perfectly describe the pompous smirk he wore during the first half of the debate.

    • I’ve got news for you…. There are a lot of “grown-ups” who are far more delusional and less logical/thoughtful than children.

      He laughed because Romney has made no secret that he believes in a war with Iran; Romney thinks ANOTHER unnecessary war is the answer for whatever godawful reason, and it’s a clear part of their agenda. Paul Ryan was simply there as a mouthpiece, and he proved it with his newfound Romney style debating and lies.

  37. It would have been nice if Biden wasn’t soooo nervous… He gave me the impression that he felt the need to keep interrupting Ryan like he’s a five year old boy that’s fighting for his toy???????? Biden needs to learn to take a breath and share a word or two… So that we the people can then determine what we think as an individually… Not be forced to hear only him and his side… He also felt the need to keep laughing as if what Ryan was saying was funny… I personally didn’t find anything to be funny????

    I’m glad Ryan stayed calm and well put together… I know there were some things that he wanted to say and was unable to… so now I will be sure to follow him… Its become clear to me that Biden can’t handle pressure! And that’s not what i want representing…

    I am not much into politics, but as anyone can see… The USA has only been suffering for the last few years… I am so sick of hearing people say its because of “Bush” get over it — ITS FOUR YEARS LATER! I am ready to take a chance to see a change!

  38. OH… And Biden says, “He never answers these things”… That’s because you wont let him talk… now that’s funny!!!

  39. Kaboom! I thought Ryan is the future of the republican Party… wow. It looked to me so foolish and unprepared. Now I am sure more than ever that Romney + Ryan = total disaster. In the last years Republicans showed us only people that are unelectable material. This election candidates where Romney is a leftover, not top of the crop. Ryan, Palin,…etc. It looks to me that Republicans have no good people anymore. It is amazing to me how this election can be so closed when republicans have such low quality candidates.

    Ryan looked more like a student in front of his teacher. Is this guy really a big shot in politics? Because my feeling is that this guy won’t make it as assistant at a public University. Something is off when such a brainless person get to this level. Amazing!

    I regret that president Obama did such a lousy job in his debate. All he should have need to do was to stick to the facts and poke Romney at times.

    • No, he looked more like someone flabbergasted that Biden is such a fool and that the moderator was allowing him to railroad the debate. Biden is not the future, he is the past. Ryan is the future, just too civilized for you no doubt.

    • Totally agree with this. I read his story and background and I can’t believe that someone with so little experience is a Vice Presidential candidate. He barely has any education, just a bachelor’s degree in political science. Big whoop.

      • And you thought Obama was qualified to be President? Check his background and you’ll find even the qualifications he claims he had at his university are shady.

      • Um, why dont you check the back ground of our current president. What a joke. Did you care about that when you voted for him? Or did you just chant change, yes we can, change, yes we can, while you drank the cool aid and drove to the voting booth. Oh wait, I mean, rode your bike to voting booth.

            • According to the University of Chicago, School of Law’s website….

              http://www.law.uchicago.edu/media

              Statement Regarding Barack Obama

              The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as “Senior Lecturer.”

              From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School’s Senior Lecturers has high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.

            • Jacque:

              The last line is the most important. His choice.

              Sorta like Willard probably could have found a job in the last five years, if he had tried, but of course, unlike you or I, he just doesn’t need to work.

              It’s only 33 seconds:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezraTH3K6_w

              He joked, “I’m unemployed, too.”
              Dang people who don’t even try to get a job.

            • Wow…. And there are people who really believe this guy understands them. I kind of want to throw up a little just thinking about that.

  40. You people defending Biden and attacking the Romney/Ryan ticket are all hypocrites and sheep. I guess Romney giving almost $2million in taxes isn’t enough. If it was your money you would be protecting it the same way. Anybody ask why it’s better to keep your money overseas? Why is you money safer there than here? It shouldn’t be that way! I guess Obama looking right at you and lying to you is a good thing. Both of the two idiots in the white house are lying to your faces and you slobber all over every lie. You want a good life…? Get off your asses and get the hell to work!

    • By safer, do you mean not taxed?

      Clearly, you don’t believe decent infrastructure, education, healthcare (which usually means a healthy middle class as well by the way) to be good things. Yes, there are certainly better ways in which some tax dollars could be spent, but President Obama has been far more responsible and productive than his Republican predecessors and counterparts.

      Also, save it for Bill Gates, or even Warren Buffett. At least they can recognize where their millions and billions came from. Let me guess…. You’re another one of those who still believes in trickle-down, despite the evidence against it; despite the fact that even Reagan himself (purveyor of your beloved faux-economics theory) has rejected the idea.

    • Oh, wait; never mind! Romney can’t take a cue from them…. Because 1) he was born wealthy, and 2) the money he did make for himself, he made by ‘harvesting’ companies and cutting jobs/wages.

      Oopsies.

  41. Martha Raddatz did her job and was awesome!!! Candidates should not be put in the place of being moderator and candidate especially if they are currently the president!!!

    • Nobody can keep a bunch of lying government dudes honest except God. There was deception going on
      with both sides. You don’t get to the presidency with out being messed up these day. Just cause they got a chance to run means that there tied in with some of the “higher powers”. It’s cuz the systems rigged these days and its going to be unless some thing changes. Either one of these guys is gonna leave a bad taste in your mouth in the end. Obama is a liar and he’s not even much of a leader. But he is one of the biggest puppets I’ve ever seen. And Mitt Romney is most likely the same. But I really can’t see as to how he could possibly be as bad
      as Obama. But let me tell you the truth. We can Blame the ruin of our country on Bush. We can blame the ruin of our country on Obama. Or we can predict the ruin of our country if Romney gets
      in. But you want to know something. It’s our fault. The nation as a whole, we focus more on wants
      and dreams more than needs and reality. Most of us are so uneducated that we can’t tell when something just sounds good but really is a bad idea.You know all’s I here is a bunch of talk.
      Neither of these two cantidates are gonna bring what they say to the table and the mean while are gonna lose more ground. I’ll tell you what it is. We as a nation have left the principles of God
      and have gone our own way. We think that we are smart and can figure it out. But we can’t. Just about all nations in this world are operating contrary to God’s directions and all of them are failing and are doomed to failure.You know…When your building something or your operating
      an extremly intricate machine you do best to follow provided directions and training.Same thing
      with running a government and working as a nation. If you don’t operate as according to Gods plan
      as an individual whether your a President or a citizen, your going to effect the nation you live in in a negative way. Following Gods principles in all our lives would make America a better placemore than any president, governor or congressman ever could. I’ll give you an example of that fact. If everyone always obey this Bible command …Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself… then there would be know theft. There would be know no lying and cheating government. There would be no murders. So if we followed the Bible then we could get some where as a nation.
      Many of the settlers who came to America came for religious freedom and practiced seeking God with all there hearts. That is why God blessed this nation. But as we get farther and farther from God’s ways we get weaker and weaker as a nation. Not to mention less free. Proverbs 14:34 “Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.” Almost all nations are doing it the way were doing it now and its not working. Why don’t we try it Gods way. You might think. What does doing right have to do with politics?…Well I see it this way. If we live according to Gods words, then God will give us the leaders and the sense to vote for them. But if we live our own way , disobeying his commands…We will get the leaders we deserve. Which is what is happening right now.

      • Rodger, that is some impressive religious zeal you’ve got there. I can only hope you extend your passion in a positive and open-minded way. Unfortunately I’m more for realism than fanaticism but that shouldn’t stop us [and the country] from pursuing the same goals. We don’t need God to hold our leaders to honesty, we have that power every time we vote. Show them that we will not stand by and support whomever lies the best. Get active and work on fixing the parts of the system that are broken; don’t wait for a higher power to do your work for you. You don’t need to be religious to have a moral code, you live by God’s word, I’ll live by my moral code, and as long as we are open and accepting of people and their beliefs I’m convinced we can get back to being the country we all want to be.
        In the meantime I at least have to give the moderators credit in the two debates thus far; they have made an valiant effort to get substantive answers from the candidates, even though they have had little success.

        • give the moderators credit in the two debates ? ? ? ?

          Well the second was better than the first but they are still pitching soft balls & letting them knock them out of the park.

          • Billy: I would love to see a debate in which Bill O’Reilly asks questions of Obama, and Bill Maher asks questions of Romney. The blood would flow. . .

  42. Biden does not have any manners. He helped make himself and his ticket so hateable. Enough lies; I really hope they get out of the way in November. (And you can believe me on this, I am a liberal.)

  43. Meanwhile – the drones ignore that Obama has only eight States left leaning or likely For Obama/Biden. That means 42 toss up, leaning or likely going Romey/Ryan. Thanks Joe LOL!

        • Lynny: The problem with being a newbie is that you don’t know who you’re talking to, and therefore, do not know what you are talking about.

          During the primaries, most of the “regulars” on this site, such as myself, wanted RON PAUL to win. And it was only through very distasteful means that Romney’s shysters got the nomination.

          At the end, Ron Paul just wanted a chance to address the convention. He was denied even that, by again, unethical means [disallowing a state’s delegation, for cryssake]. That is the main reason why many if not most Ron Paul supporters would like to see Bainboy go down.

          Even if you forgive him for being on three sides of every issue, his undemocratic dirty tricks during the primaries IS unforgivable. You’ll notice that Ron Paul doesn’t feel that Willard deserves support.

          So your slap at Billy is both irrelevant and idiotic. Billy is our resident humorist. When he poked the previous poster, Atlas shrugged. You took the bait and look ridiculous.

          • You don’t know who you are talking to either. I happened to be a Ron Paul supporter. May be true that I haven’t read ALL the comments in this forum in order to know the little nuances of yours and Billy’s humor and pokes but I suggest if your comments cannot be taken at face value you should go to a more private means of corresponding. I won’t go into why you bite your nose off to spite your face as it is likely to go in one ear and out the other or hit a wall of narcissism and/or arrogance and I won’t waste more of my time.

  44. How scary is it that the liberals actually think Biden won on substance? This is the way liberals think you win, railroading and plowing down anyone in your path who has different ideas, making sure no one can hear them speak. Their motto should be “Never let ’em finish a sentence”. True Ryan doesn’t have all the debate experience under his belt that Biden does (a positive in my opinion) and I was hoping he would jump in and demand equal time – been a little more forceful. But he actually is the one with the truth and the facts, which would have been more apparent if had been able to complete his thoughts. Ryan didn’t have time to explain things so liberals can understand since they have so many knots in their brains from listening to Obama/Biden LIES.

    • How is being less experienced a positive? The man is barely educated. LOL. Biden had total control of the debate because he knows his stuff, and made an ass out of Ryan because he IS an ass.

      • I said debate experience, not experience as a whole. So let me get this straight, you have to have experience at debating VPs in order to be a VP? Think about what you’re saying.

      • Emily, you know Ryan? How is it you know what an ass is because I thought it was equal to being rude and ignorantly mocking to your opposing candidate in a Presidential debate for running the United States of America. You’re supporting an idiot. I wouldn’t want him for dinner much less in charge of my country.

    • I have to say I didn’t like the way Biden started and finished almost all the segments. That all ways gave him a chance leave the last remarks and Ryan had no chance to reply. How stupid is that.
      Did you see how he was smiling and laughing the whole time. Just like Obama. I can’t help but think of the March Hare and the Mad Hatter on “Alice in Wonderland”.

      • Rodger: Actually, Ryan went first most of the time.

        She asked
        (1) Libya/intelligence failure?
        –Biden chosen by coin toss
        (1a) Did Romney speak too fast on Libya?
        …..–Ryan first
        (1b) No apologies?
        …..–Ryan first
        (2) Attacking Iran?
        …..–Ryan first
        (2a) How stop Iran?
        …..–Ryan first
        (3) What’s worse Nuclear Iran or war?
        …..–Ryan first
        (4) Unemployment below 6% possible?
        …..–Biden first
        (4a) How soon unemployment at 6%?
        …..–Ryan first
        (5) Medicare & entitlements?
        …..–Ryan first
        (5a) If seniors can’t afford voucher?
        …..–Ryan first
        (5b) Raise medicare age?
        …..–Biden first
        (5c) Privatize Social Security?
        …..–Ryan first
        (6) Who’ll pay more taxes?
        …..–Biden first
        (6a) How pay for 20% tax cut?
        …..–Ryan first
        (6b) What besides raising taxes on wealthy?
        …..–Biden first
        (6c) What about cutting defense spending?
        …..–Ryan first
        (7) Should we stay in Afghanistan?
        …..–Ryan first
        (7a) Why end surge at this time?
        …..–Biden first
        (8) Should we attack Syria?
        …..–Biden first
        (8a) What’s your criteria for intervention?
        …..–Ryan first
        (9) What do you think of abortion, personally?
        …..–Ryan first
        (9a) Would you end abortion?
        …..–Ryan first
        (10) Is the campaign too negative?
        …..–Biden first
        (11) What do you bring as a human being?
        …..–Ryan first
        (12) Closing statements?
        …..–Biden chosen by coin toss

        OK, so as you can see, if you remove the coin tosses, Ryan answered first 6 times to 4 in the main segments, and answered first 16 to 7 in the questions and follow ups.

    • I don’t even have time to address how fallacious your spiel is; but someone else posted it, and Ryan actually spoke more than Biden.

        • Well, maybe it’s just the “wanting to have faith in humanity” part of me, but I did not know if I should have expected Ryan to embrace and adopt the “more lies” approach as boldly as he did; he sure didn’t fail in that respect.

          • Jacque: Yeah. For someone who wants to run for president in 2016, the kid isn’t doing himself any favors by towing the Willard line.

            • That Willard line seems to follow the Obama like pretty close. Now the RP line was a different line all together but the voters want more of the same and this time around they are going to get it either way.

            • Billy:

              When Willard ran for senator, he changed so many of his stands that Ted Kennedy said if the campaign had lasted two more weeks, Willard would have endorsed Kennedy.

            • The guy is very successful for sure, it’s just not the kind of success this country needs right now. He applied it to Ma. and finished 47 out of 50. Why not go with someone in the top 10 at least? The voters did have that chance and it is still there but I doubt if he will get 3%.

          • He’s told what to say, the name of the game is to bring in the votes and you got to tell the people that are undecided (few) what they want to hear.

    • Comments like this from conservatives are simply hilarious. Are you one of the people who thought Romney “won” his debate by shouting down the moderator and lying about his positions? Maybe Biden was rude, but so was Romney, and Biden didn’t claim to be changing his positions on the stage.

      When I was in school, no one ever was declared winner when they got caught cheating!

  45. I’m a Republican. That said, i gotta say, Biden kicked Ryan’s arse all over Centre College.

    Ryan had no answers, he only made speeches.

    Say bye-bye to Washington, Mitt.

  46. Let me lay it down for you guys. When Ryan and Romney are talking about Obama and Biden its basicly true. If there talking about themselves they seem shady and unplanned. But Obama and Biden are full
    to the Brim with deception and I’m sick of it.

      • I don’t know if I can vote for any body but I need to make a choice. I’d lean more to Romney even though I’ve really don’t trust him and am losing the faith I had in Ryan. But I’m thinking of a third party person but i’m not gonna say till I find out more. I just told some one this long explanation of why not to vote for third parties. And after hearing and learning more I’m just about to cuz i kinda wish other people would so we’d stop having this democrats and republicans give you the choices they want thing going on. How about the choices we want! And God forbid that any of these two would be our ultimate satisfaction…Forgive me cuz I was out of country awhile and came back and then had to leave again so I’m not as informed as I’d like to be. Its easier to see what going on when your in the states. I was there for a little while and its fresh on my mind. And the states is a lot worse off than when I left it some 6 years ago.

        • I know it seems like all Republicans and Democrats are dishonest but the truth is there are many honorable men and women among them. I am well informed and follow the contenders closely. There is nothing I’ve seen in Romney that is dishonest or shady. As much as many conservatives don’t want him to, he will work with everyone to get things done. He knows how to grow the economy and that’s what we need. If we want our administrators to be the biggest, meanest animals who can conquer the others with his big horns then Biden won the debate. If we want civility, intelligence, integrity, honor and truth, you don’t get much closer than Romney/Ryan.

          Aside from the fact that Ryan never got to finish his sentences, if you break down the substance of what was said, Ryan told the truth and Biden lied about nearly all the numbers he mentioned.

          JFK is the one who said we must lower taxes in order to spur growth and that growth is the only way to improve the lives of the middle class and beyond. This is exactly what Romney/Ryan will do. Democrats of today bare little resemblance to democrats of Kennedy’s era. It’s all about the economy. Little else matters if we don’t stop this slide toward socialism that so many in other countries run from

          • Lynn:

            We need a little context here. When Kennedy said we should lower taxes, the top tax rate was 91%. And we also had very little debt.

            If he knew that Romney had to juggle his books to get his tax rate ABOVE ten percent, Kennedy would be horrified.

            Today, using JFK as propaganda for sucking more wealth to the tiny few is as honest as using a quote from FDR to justify bombing Germany today.

            • The principle is the same. Romney’s income was primarily investment income. What about that don’t you liberals understand? Romney’s taxes follow the law. He also gave 30% of his income to charity. That’s what good successful people do and that’s how it should be. I like the way libs talk about successful people as if their success belongs to someone besides the one who made it.

            • Lynn: I should not have brought in Romney, since that allowed you to go off on a silly tangent, avoiding the point.

              So, your honor, I would like to strike the middle sentence and rephrase, to make the point clear:
              .
              .
              .
              We need a little context here. When Kennedy said we should lower taxes, the top tax rate was 91%. And we also had very little debt.

              If he knew that Romney had to juggle his books to get his tax rate ABOVE ten percent, Kennedy would be horrified.

              Today, using JFK as propaganda for sucking more wealth to the tiny few is as honest as using a quote from FDR to justify bombing Germany today.

            • You’re right I misunderstood your point. However, my point stands. And lets clarify, Romney’s taxes were gains from investment, not from a paycheck. He followed the LAW. I doubt you have any real evidence that he ‘juggled his books’. If Romney paid his 15% on cap gains and 30% in charity, that should be good enough for anyone. His paycheck income would be near the highest in the land if he had a paycheck. Good for Romney to be able to employ people and give of his wealth to those in need, rather than gov’t squandering it.

            • Lynn:

              Right. Romney hasn’t worked for five years. What is beefing up his Cayman accounts is what is legally referred to as “unearned income.”

              Regarding “juggling the books,” that’s what the news was in his recent tax return. He made a big deal about not paying less than 13% in the years he refused to show us, and then, this year, his rate would have been about TEN percent, so he had the accountants go back and so they GAVE BACK deductions, for appearances sake, so it brought his tax rate UP to 14.2%.

              Here’s FOX News’ WALL STREET JOURNAL report on it, saying Mr. Romney had deducted the full $4 million of deduction instead of only $2.25 millon, his effective tax rate would have been about 10.5%

              This is the same guy who said a few months ago that if he paid more tax than he absolutely HAD to, he wouldn’t be worthy of being president. har.

              “Employ people”–that’s a laugh. Here’s how this so-called “businessman” made his money:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENd0x4bqqVI

              You really SHOULD watch that. It’s only 9 minutes, but if you have no attention span, at least watch between the 2 and 4 minute range.

              Robme may “follow the law,” but that’s only because we have very bad laws.

            • Robme may “follow the law,” but that’s only because we have very bad laws.

              So how many poor people make the laws? Most laws and regulations are made to make the rich people richer. True a few are made to make sure the poor stay poor but here we find the rare exception where greed is stronger than fear (regulation).

            • Yeah, we’re making progress. Also we weren’t coming out of a recession at that time. How crazy is 91%. Good God!

  47. It will be worth it if Romney gets in just so I don’t have to here Obama say, “Thank you America for choosing me. There is no limit to what we can achieve if we work together.” Yeah…here’s the plan. You pay your misused tax money like good little citizens and I’ll tell a bed time story and I’ll buy you something nice like more welfare and food stamps. And then I lie about how i wasted your money. Etcetera etcetera…etcetera. “Oh…would you like to here a scary story. Its about…A ROMNEY. Once upon an election. Romney became president. And he robbed the poor, to feed the rich. Not to mention he threw your granny off a cliff. And the worst part. 5 Trillion Dollar Tax Cuts……I see you young children leaving the room because the story is too frightening..I’m sorry to have disturbed you in such a manner. Now all you little citizens go to bed and wake up in the morning and I’ll have you a nice Shambled U.S.A for your breakfast. Or do you like your country over charged?

      • I know the scare about the trillion dollar war thing but Obama has spent his share of money on war
        and we don’t know that Romney is gonna waste money on war in a senseless way just cuz the crats keep saying so. They can’t even perform their own say so…Romney Isn’t a traditional republican
        so I’m not that worried about war spending. I’m a little worried about whats going on inside his mind. I think what he and Romney know is there economics but I think they seem unlearned in foreign policy. I can’t figure him out so that makes me think he’s not what he’s trying to portray himself as. There is one confidence I have in him though. He can’t possibly be as bad as Obama. And Obama’s foreign policy Isn’t good either. I havn’t seen good foreign policy in my life time.

        • I’m not criticizing republicans using war as necessary. But I believe war needs better management. What I mean by Romney not being the tradition republican is he don’t seem like he’s one to keep a war going…maybe…But it doesn’t need to stop until we can effectively and safe turn the fight over to the natives.but maybe Romney just seems sort of docile with all that help middle income Americans stuff.

  48. One more thing.Ryan’s position on abortion stinks!!!I say no abortion for rape or incest. Just cuz a guy rapes a girl does’t mean we kill the baby.There’s got to be a better way. I’d hate it if some one killed me cuz my mother was raped. I want some one to at least put me in an orphanage or in a foster home for Pete’s sake. The law should confiscate all the rapers assets and give them to his offspring. And it would make more sense to kill the raper than the child. And i know there are some out there that would think me evil to say that but those same people would consent to the death of the innocent child. How messed up is that? And that junk about “a woman should have control over her own body” as excuse for abortion. A lot of women don’t have control over there body is why most are getting pregnant in the first place. If you see what I mean…That last thought had nothing to
    the video but I just thought I’d say it.

    • You are forgetting that Democrats don’t consider an unborn child a child. Any Christian that votes for Democrat is voting for government subsidized murder of the innocent, regardless of the situation.

    • You combined rape and incest with a woman who has no control over her sexual habits. NOT the same. Try carrying out a pregnancy from a rapist…see what it does to a young teenager trying to finish school, a married woman who carries it in front of her husband and children, who is reminded every moment of the violent crime against her. There’s a difference you idiot and it should be stated as so. I am pro life. Including the life of a female who was used by a filthy intruder. The criminal can answer to God for the abortion, not the victim.
      Any victim has the right to abort. It’s not just a frivolous cover up for immorality.

      • I verified that last thought as an after thought. I didn’t try to connect it to rape and incest.
        I guess I said it at the wrong time.

        “And that junk about “a woman should have control over her own body” as excuse for abortion. A lot of women don’t have control over there body is why most are getting pregnant in the first place. If you see what I mean…That last thought had nothing to
        the video but I just thought I’d say it.” THERE…that was the after thought that came to my mind that had nothing to do with the begining but a little. Only cuz it was on abortion.

      • And abortion is mostly not a cover up for immorality but a manifestation of selfishness.And less of rape and incest. But reason I did not include any thing regarding cases were the mother would surely die if the baby were born is that in those cases life of either would be lost if not both. How could I know which of the two to try and save?Or which would be right?My belief still stands on rape and incest though. My belief is that the baby should be adopted or in foster care as best case or worst case orphanage.And if the mother is tough enough to keep the baby..thast great..but I would not expect her to be.

    • Wow. *All* of your anti-choice/female opinions are appalling. But let’s talk about the more controversial one… Because reckless behavior leading to unintended pregnancy is totally only attributable to women, right?

      You can’t make someone bring life into this world simply because it’s your opinion that they should. Your opinion over another individual’s decision [that makes no negative impact on your life btw] means jack, because more likely than not, you probably wouldn’t even give two s**ts about what happens to that child after being born.

      Are you familiar with that saying “never ever shake a baby”? Yeah, that’s probably because people weren’t ready/mature enough. I never understand why it was on all the bookcovers for our textbooks when I was younger, but now that I know that Texas’ teen pregnancy rate skyrocketed to #4 in the nation after Rick Perry imposed abstinence only education on the state, that totally makes sense.

      But yeah…. They were irresponsible and got pregnant on accident and (many) are still pretty much children themselves? Let’s give them more responsibility! Make that the responsibility and burden of another life! Because that makes sense. What kind of reasoning is that?

      • So, it’s the law of nature vs the law of man. My money is on the law of nature. Sex is second only to survival on the totem pole.

        • Not to sound like a hippy, but how is man not a part of nature? When we f*** with nature, when has it ever not eventually come back to f*** us?

          So yes, I agree; but that’s because I recognize sex as being very much a part of [human] nature. Anyone who thinks they’ll be able to ban it is a moron.

            • Reminds me of the ‘morality/religion police’ they apparently have in some parts of the Middle East. That religious conservatives could shout freedom and try to impose their will on people at the same time is beyond baffling…. Religion creates enough problems, imagine a society and police state where you could be judged by (often hypocritical) religious standards… Ugh.

              I live in Salt Lake City (UT), and they have some very interesting and specific rules out here…. You can’t dance in a public space after 2am, you can buy beer after 1am in the grocery stores, and malt beverages can only be sold in the state liquor stores (because beer allowed here has a lower alcohol content than your average malt liquor; and the only liquor stores around here are the state ones). Those are some cons, but Salt Lake City is rather decent in terms of certain ‘amenities’ (outdoor recreation, decent amount of local businesses of different varieties, fairly decent mass transit). In terms of both culture and amenities, it’s far preferable for me to many other parts of Utah (although Park City can be nice too; it’s just sort of small).

            • Jacque:

              Well, a couple o’ states in Billy’s neck of the woods have that law that if a woman wants an abortion, she has to let ’em poke that stick up her, to see if they can make her change her mind. . .

            • Yeah, I remember that; it’s maddening…. And the Republicans have the gall to accuse others of being “cruel” or “demeaning”.

          • part of [human] nature……………..the word “human” ? ? ? ? Didn’t think it was limited to just humans.

            • No, but I added that because humans are unique in some ways. That does not change that we are very much still a part of a much bigger ecological system though… We make the biggest (and unfortunately not very positive at this point) impact on biodiversity and then environment in general. =S

            • Billy:

              I think that was Jacque’s attempt to pre-empt a goofy, long-winded, irrelevant tangent about humans being different from the rest of nature.

      • I think your not examining the options properly. there are many options on the table besides abortion for mothers that are to young to properly care their baby. Some people are to young to care for their own kid is true. But there are other options than abortion. Like children homes and foster care and if your creative you can think of more. By the way I never said that I can make some one bring life into the world. They brought life into the world when they conceived…I’m saying they shouldn’t take life out of the world. I don’t how you can come across saying “you probably wouldn’t give to s**ts about the child after being born” Its largely hypocritcal. Considering you your reply seems to strongly indicate you side on the abortion of the child. So if i probably don’t give two s**ts” about the child…than your position is so low that It can’t be expressed in words only in the solace of your messed up heart. Fact is I love kids and something tells me you don’t. And my “anti-choice female options are appalling”? Its simply incorrect and assumes that I do not hold responsible or condemn the male for aborting a child all so. But truth be told the woman has the final say so. But if both male and female are in agreement with the abortion they are equally guilty. If I got a girl pregnant (which could happen…witch i hope doesn’t…and No I’m not “in a relationship”) I would take responsibility of the child even if the mother wouldn’t. If I was younger I would try to get the child in foster care.

        One last thing…I don’t see how it is so wrong to believe that the life a human is more important than the feelings, hardships, shame, time and incoveinence of its parents. Why do we
        consider it wrong to kill another human if there not in the womb and then say it is right to kill another in the womb. Who has the right to say that a baby is a human allowed to be killed? If a 12 year old boy’s single mother becomes a quadrapoligic and euthanasia is a lawful practice for that person in his third world country. And there are not any relatives willing to help him care and no money or insurance need to give him the proper care for his mom. He would have to care for his mom alone. Would it be right for him to kill her?(That kid would have a hard time to care for his mom and it would be a whole lot harder than caring for an infant for many reasons) I would hope that none of you would consider it alright for him to kill his mom. But it seems all right for one to kill a helpless child. WHY? Cuz the baby in the womb is not really life any ways?(lie)Because the mother is to young? Because killing a mother’s worse? btw..Just Cuz my story about the boy isn’t a real testimony doesn’t make it irrelevant.

        • I’m sorry, but *you* are missing the point. Let me preface this by saying that this argument probably depends largely upon whether you make the clear distinctions between embryo, fetus, and human being; and since you apparently make no distinctions between any form of life (because life begins at conception according to you), you must be a vegan that also does not eat plants, or anything else that’s ever lived or has organic origins?

          Let’s go over your points and mine again, shall we?

          1) You stated that you are against abortion, even in cases of rape/incest. That’s nice. Your opinion still overrides NO ONE’S individual right to choose, especially human beings dealing with such trauma in having to make a choice due to sexual assault/violence from another individual (this can only basically mean a woman and a man). Any consideration for the actual and grown human being who has been violated? Oh right, you don’t care about the shame, hardships, whatever feelings they are dealing with about it (hence, you do not give two sh*ts about someone’s life after they’ve been born)? Next.

          *[Again, this issue of public policy is not simply a matter of your opinion, it’s about the choices that are technologically available to us, and the individual right to determine the course of one’s own life] And yes, I do believe and argue that there is more value there in that sentient being who has been out in the world, and knows what life is (and in this circumstance, did I not mention, is dealing with such a choice as a result of being VIOLATED by another human being?); not an embryo (something which does not have thoughts or feelings, or even a heartbeat btw). *My* cruelty is almost too much to bear. Oh the irony.

          2) You mentioned that women also get pregnant out of irresponsibility. We can establish that we differ in how we define “life”, as you are apparently against the taking of all life (which means, grass, vegetation, cows, anything that is organic is some shape or form down to an embryo; unless you also do not give two sh*ts about basic facts and science). But anyway, great; we’ve established that definition, and that you are absolutely pro-life, even in instances of rape/incest. My point in response to your point that irresponsible people should be forced/given the IMMENSE responsibility and task of bringing and caring for life, is that that is ludicrous and not logical whatsoever. That’s like saying, oh hey, I left my stuff/cash around you and you stole it; HERE’S MORE.

          Except this is different, because we are talking about human lives. If we have the advances and ability to allow people to manage those consequences safely (which basically means they are being responsible enough to know that they are not fit to be a parent yet, and are not certain that they could/would give a child a good/decent life), what exactly is the problem again? You want to force a huge responsibility onto someone who knows they are not ready, and simultaneously dictate that another potentially neglected, abused, emotionally stressed and/or unwanted life be brought into the world to struggle? Raising a child to become a good, happy, and responsible human is not simple. Do you really think you know what’s best for those who were not looking to conceive in the first place? If you believe that neglect, abuse, or just general idiocy is unimportant or uncommon in parenting (here and abroad), please do explain what solid facts there are for such a conclusion.

          The two points you made above (which I’ve responded to individually), have simply been to stress those other *options* because of your own biases. Nothing changes, once again, that women as individual human beings are the ones who will have to make the final choice (or has the “final say so”, as you put it). And in the end, even if you managed to (let’s hope never) push through some kind of legislation, all that would really mean is that women would go back to the coat hanger days, obtain it in whatever way they can (the criminalization of abortion from the 1880s through 1973 did not reduce the numbers of women who sought abortions; and in 3rd world countries where it is not available o women due to religious oppression, many women are still dealing with these back alley abortions). All you would be doing is trying to repress individual choice and safe healthcare. Since Roe vs. Wade, not only is it now being obtained in a safe way, but it’s been shown that a large majority of women do so early on in the pregnancy. Prior to the legalization, 1/4 of abortions were after 13 weeks; afterwards, that number dropped to 1 in 10. And by the 80s, at least half of women did so before even 8 weeks.

          If you try to take the choice, women will notice, and they will fight back for their individual liberty and rights. Furthermore, if you try, you still will not succeed. It’s one of the most common procedures performed, whether you like it or not; you will simply be putting women back into harms way, for no reason other than to try to legislate and impose your personal morality on something that likely does not affect your life in a personal way.

          • Jacque,
            A person having an abortion is terminating the entire life process of a human. If you were to squash a fertilized frog egg you would end that frogs entire life process(and I bet you if some one started squashing fertilized frog eggs on tv some one would start having a fit. And I don’t think squashing frog eggs for no purpose is right.)When I say that the life of a human is more important than the feelings, hardships, shame, time and incoveinence of its parents. I’m saying that terminating some ones whole life process is a whole lot worse than another having to have problems. and your reply implies that I’m saying I don’t care that that they do go through shame and problems.Twisting my meaning and context does not become you. I’m simply saying the child’s life process is more important than any thing. And not all abortions are at embryo and fetus stage. Lots of abortions have been done when the baby was almost finished or when coming out for that matter. And some have said that its not life till the baby is fully born. “Science” is always going to be coming up with new “opinions” of when a developing baby becomes life. Once in the science world arose the questions. What is the definition of life?What is life? Scientist have determined that the if an entity has DNA it is life. And just the fact that its growing we know that its alive cuz there is not one thing that is dead that is developing and forming new cells. I don’t see how you can say some thing is not life when it is alive. There are one celled organisym out there that are life. This “a developing baby is not life until such and such a time” thing is largely political and entirely inaccurate and not scientific what so ever cuz it in itself is “opinion”. Your operating from the view that its not life or human yet. Which cannot be sciencetificly proven as much as people want to say it is. I say life begins at conception cuz that is when the life process of a human begins and the egg is activated and
            begins to grow. At that that point the developing child is life until the day he or she dies. Fact is it must be life if it has to be removed from the womb and or destroyed to be killed. And you can’t kill something unless it is life. And that’s not “opinion”…That’s science.

            Now here’s a question. If your mom was raped would you want her to have aborted you aborted??? Because according to you it worse for the mom to have to deal with the heart ache. Should she have been aloud to terminate your whole life process. Or Her heart ache in exchange for Your being born in the world?..your months as a newborn baby and the joy that you bring to others with your cute little smiles…the love and sense of a new beginning that you give your family. And Your first birthday which is always such a happy day. Your toddler years were you just seem to make the world come to life by easing old troubled hearts with your presence and just living life to the fullest. The first years of your schooling were you make lot of friends and learn so many thing and really start to experience the world. Then the years where you start growing up and learn what you were made for. Finishing up your high school and having the blast of your life. Growing into an adult and starting to make an impact on the world around you. Getting married and have kids of your own and finally getting some where in life to where you have the education and assets to fulfill your dreams. Watching your kids as they grow up and by now it all seems to go so fast. The part of your life when Suddenly all your kids are getting married.The time were you can’t wait to for the grad baby to be born. Days when your grand kids are more and older and the and all six of your grand children are coming over and your so excited. Finally reaching that age where you can retire and kick back and relax for a spell, living out the rest of your life to a right old age. I have a hunch you would have wanted your mother to keep you alive. And I’m glad your not aborted and are able to post on this site. How much your replies are wrong and immoral. I’ve been talking to you on this page so much I feel like I know you. What’s worse. Ending some one’s entire life process. Or to tell some one that it’s wrong to end some one’s entire life cycle. You see…Killing at any stage is robbing that developing person of everything. That person will never have another chance at life. So sad it all has to end in a womb. A mothers womb should be the safest place on earth. My dad always says that “The means doesn’t justify the end” Killing a developing or developed child and justifying it because it free’s you and the child from inconveince, time, lack of opportunity, responsibility, and shame, and because your not responsible enough to give the baby what it needs so, you’ll just take everything from it. That’s not really justification. But shame really doesn’t count cuz killing the child doesn’t rid you of shame but only creates more. Abortion is not justified by its end. Cheating isn’t justified because you studied and can’t really understand the material for the up coming test and you’ll fail the test and have to retake it if you don’t cheat. And abortion isn’t any different.

            In cases were one is not able to bare the load of caring for a child responsibility can be shared and or taken by some one else. I keep saying it but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. My aunt has four children that she is caring for cuz her daughter keeps poping them out but wont assume responsibility but my aunt and would rather care or them than to see them aborted. And I know another lady who raised her Moms children cuz her mom was irresponsible. And I have another aunt who is raising two kids of her daughters. And I once in a live presentation for a home for women with kids
            who had problems such as those issues and more. I’m not the only one who believes this way obviously.
            The same tax money that we are forced to give to help with “woman’s health care” can be used for “baby health care” if I might. You people have no imagination. You keep saying “choice”, how about the babies choice.”Hey kid you wanna live. Yeah of course I do. Why even ask such a stupid question?” and I (feel) that your most likely going to go on a tangit about your aunts and people like them shouldn’t have to deal with that. And they shouldn’t..but its a better alternative than abortion. And i agree with you that lots of parents that are irresponsible and messed these days. But their only adding abortion to their list of grievances by killing a developing child. Many people become more responsible when given the responsibility of a wife or a child or any other kind situation. So having a baby would definitely help some people.But there are some people who will never be responsible.

            Their are more pros to those children being born into the world than cons anyways. And the cons should not be considered more relevant than a humans entire life process.

            btw…I would be sorry too if I had posted a reply like yours. I’m simply contending for lives. I can’t see why that is so evil. When is contending for lives evil? And yeah I heard the stuff about (your imposing your beliefs on other’s) thats general jiff of what you said. Fact is if no one tells people that abortion is wrong it will keep going on for ever. If you don’t like people “imposing opinions” should not be watching debates. That’s the beauty of freedom. Being able to voice ones opinion in the political world is one of the checks and balances of politics. And abortion becomes political when it is legalized and funded by taxes. The Declaration of Independence states “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” The governments laws that allow people to deny the “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” from the developing child are not justified in the least. So my view is not only religious but political. As were the views of many founding fathers witch can be seen through out history. 24 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence held seminary or Bible school degrees. They understood that if we base our law on biblical principles
            the government would function properly.

            Don’t reply as if in disregard to what I’ve been saying and I won’t have to keep restating myself on the fact that I believe in finding better solutions to these birth issues than abortion. If we put time, effort and money into it we can solve all these problem without having to kill a single
            developing or developed child. What is so wrong about taking a that pro life view.

            And I’m not saying that wanting save the unable or raped mother and her child problems is wrong. That is great. But abortion(taking away every thing that child has an ever will have)is not the answer. The child will never get another chance in life. I probably shouldn’t have said that thing
            about you not loving kids cuz I really don’t know that. I just felt like answering that way cuz of your provocative, insulting replies. You keep adding more and misrepresenting my views. So if you do reply please don’t say that I’m saying, feeling or believing if I’ve not included in these posts, Or put a twist on what i’m saying and speaking my mind and feelings for me. Cuz I’m tiered of having to explain the error of your evaluations of what I say.

            I’ve been speaking large about the rape incest and cases where the mother is to young. But i don’t see any reason to argue the case of people that Just don’t want the baby cuz
            they didn’t mean to conceive. That’s an Illegitimate reason.
            That person needs to suck it up an take responsibility. And
            most accidental concepts are from lack of responsibility. They could use a little responsibility in their lives to get them on track. The “choice” not to have a baby should start before the “funny business” and before you get drunk with your girlfriend. Or before you want to try “new things” without proper precaution. And I’m not saying all incidences are because of lack of responsibility. But lots are.

            Lastly i’m not “a vegan that also does not eat plants, or anything else that’s ever lived or has organic origins” Considering a developing child as being is in close relation to the life of a plant is absurd. And seemed to insinuate that by your statement.That if any one believes that an embryo is life than then eating eating organic must be against their conscience. And I understand It was jest in attempt to prove your point but still is irrelevant.

            • Rodger: This, apparently, is not a topic for civil discussion. We had an entire thread on abortion a few weeks ago, and it was just an exercise in quoting talking points. And if someone showed any willingness to be open about it, the other side stomped them to a pulp.

              The only point of discussion was whether life begins at conception, at quickening, at birth, or somewhere in between. But that is a matter of faith. The church says male masturbation is, in a sense, murder, too.

              In order for there to be any reason to “debate” the issue is if each side is willing to stipulate some (any) point, and then look for any other points of agreement. But there is no interest in solving problems, because fighting is so much fun. If you were sincere about wanting to make a difference, you would consider WHY abortions occur, and address that problem.

              Since you are arguing the anti-abortion side, let me tell you that no one on the other side will even listen to you until you address two issues:

              (1) What are the myriad reasons women get abortions? What can be done to resolve the problems that lead to this medical act that NOBODY, NOBODY, NOBODY wants?

              (2) If you are going to force a woman to go to term, what plans do you have to help the unwanted child feel wanted? How are you going to resolve the above issues, so that the woman is willing and EQUIPPED to handle the pregnancy, birth, and child-rearing for eighteen years?

              I know this will anger some pro-choice people–who feel that the issue is about a woman’s body–and men should shut the f*ck up. You probably won’t ever have a reasonable discussion with such women, since they don’t believe that you, as a man, have any “standing” in the issue. To them, forcing them to have a birth is the same as forcing them to have a boob job. If you can comprehend that, you will see how they look at it, and you will have a point at which to BEGIN an adult discussion.

              But it also brings up a third question:

              (3) If abortion is murder, how can you justify it in the case of incest, rape, the health of the woman, or ANY other circumstance? If it’s “murder,” isn’t it always murder? “Pro-life” people who make these exceptions ONLY make these exceptions because they know they are popular, and therefore, will help “their side” neutralize opposition by bystanders. How else can you justify your right to make the “choice” of when it’s allowable??

            • I admit I didn’t get all the way through this word vomit of a comment, but what I did manage to read was hilarious. Especially this phrase, “the entire life process of a human,” which is a phrase that you seem to really like. What on earth does that even mean, son?

              Are you aware of the fact that up to 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage? Does all that termination of the entire life processes of humans keep you up at night? Ha!

              You know what makes someone a person? A MIND. At the point at which a fetus is aborted, it does not have a mind. We don’t even consider ANIMALS to be people, and they have something closer to a mind than an aborted fetus. Give me a break! You think that a mindless collection of cells
              is more important than the either the health and well-being of a woman, or the health and well-being of many, many children stuffed into the foster care system.

              It’s an ancient, misogynistic and barbaric view that is thankfully slowly dying out.

            • Ah, you just don’t understand “the new world order” yet. And if you do find out what it means, please tell

            • @Goethe Behr –

              “I know this will anger some pro-choice people–who feel that the issue is about a woman’s body–and men should shut the f*ck up. You probably won’t ever have a reasonable discussion with such women, since they don’t believe that you, as a man, have any “standing” in the issue. To them, forcing them to have a birth is the same as forcing them to have a boob job.”

              No. I really don’t think you grasp the feminist argument here at all.

              Just consider this. Historically, men’s oppression of women has most likely been based on two facts:

              1) Men have physical power over women.
              2) Men have the ability to impregnate women.

              Put the two together and you have the forcible impregnation of women as virtually the most fundamentally oppressive thing men can do to women. Control over women’s bodies, full stop, is deeply fundamental to sexism, and forcing women to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is the fullest expression of that control.

              Empowerment of women depends on women being completely free of this. Individual women are, of course, free to include the men in their lives in their decision. But the empowerment of women from male oppression depends on considering male opinion as a matter of CHOICE and not a matter of COURSE.

            • Dan: I was trying to be non-threatening. What I meant was that HE can’t have a “reasonable” discussion if he doesn’t understand where they’re coming from.

            • That road has been gone down more time than I care to remember. We do need frogs though, critical shortage. No shortage on unwanted kids.

            • Some one earlier were said that I’m forcing my religious views on others. I haven’t even yet expressed my religious view yet. So I guess I’ll state it right here by letting God do most the talking cuz he does it best.

              David speaks by the Holy Ghost in this passage of scripture concerning his development in the womb.
              “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.” (Psalms 139:13-16) According to these verses
              God recognizes a fetus as a human being before a fetus even has any development in its body(the word substance in this passage means anything that is rolled together as a ball, a wrapped and unformed mass ). Yet the passage also states God has blueprint already charted for that fetus.
              “Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?” (Job 31:15) This states that God personally developed each person in the womb.
              God clearly states murder to be wrong.”Thou shalt not kill.” “Exodus 20:13”

              And the Bible most defintely shows abortion to be killing by this excerpt from old testament law. “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,” (Exodus 21:22,23) What I see this verse to be saying is saying that if a man hurt a woman and her child comes out prematurely then the man would have to give “compensation money” if you will. But if harm came to either the mother or child resulting in the death of either one he would have to give life for life.
              God takes this thing of killing developing children in the womb very seriously. My words to any one seeking abortion is…”Keep your dirty hands of the human that God is forming in the the womb and don’t kill it. If that was you in there would you want the mother to kill you?”

              And if any of you have not done a thorough study
              on the Bible and history, archeology, and science concerning the Bible. Don,t even give me that the Bible is not true crap. Because you are to lazy to even read the Bible or even study up history and archeology to see if they back or disprove the Bible. Therefore your opinion does not count. And if you have done a legitimate study of the Bible feel free to reply.

            • Yeah, Jacque:

              Your opinion about your life doesn’t matter if you haven’t done in-depth study archeology.

            • I didn’t say his view on life doesn’t matter because he has not done in
              depth study of archeology. I was saying I didn’t want people to throw
              that “what God said is irrelevant stuff at me” if they haven’t even studied about the Word of God to learn why it is or isn’t true and accurate or even read it for that matter. “Therefore your opinion does not count” was clearly in relation to the contents of that paragraph. Why do you think I started another paragraph? To isolate that thought, that’s why.

            • We have elected learned men who have studied the Constitution and just look what we ended up with, the TSA and Gitmo.

            • Rodger:

              As I said above, abortion is not a topic on which there CAN be a civil discussion, much less fruitful, because neither side will bend. I asked you to consider, at least consider (a) the woman’s situation, and (b) the unwanted child’s situation, and all we heard was crickets chirping. If you can’t even consider the other side’s issues, you cannot debate, much less reach any positive point.

              Let’s look at this thread. It began with you saying Ryan’s view of abortion stinks, since he allows it in case of rape or abortion.

              I agree with you that IF one believes abortion “murder,” then there can be no exceptions. AND that is EXACTLY what Ryan said until now, but he doesn’t have the character to stand by his beliefs. He bent to the will of Willard, which is ridiculous, since Willard will have at least two other views on the issue before the election.

              Jacque then said that it reminds her of the “morality/religion police” in the middle east–and that it feels likewise oppressive in her Mormon community. You and she then went back and forth.

              Then you said you are NOT trying to force your religious views on others. HOWEVER.you immediately quoted your bible, which was, somehow, supposed to PROVE that you were not trying to force your religion on us???

              Then, you said that YOU have done a whole fricken bunch o’ study, and you have been able to FIND details in “history, archeology, and science” to rationalize what you wanted to believe in the first place. THAT is what I ridiculed. AS IF, anyone would read the same documents and come up with YOUR conclusions.

              The bottom line is that ALL of your arguments are based on your preconceived, preferred preferences–your doctrinaire religion–and have no basis otherwise. So you are, in fact, forcing your religion on us if you want The United States of America to make laws to outlaw whatever YOU don’t want. QED.

            • Actually Billy,
              The comment that made me laugh was the dead beat dad comment. But some how you posted the thing about the learned men studying the constitution right before I posted concerning your earlier reply. And I know that some people who study the Bible are going to disagree with me..for sure. But I just don’t like people giving me an opinion about the Bible with out any knowledge of it.

            • Think there was something about opinion being based on being “misinformed” and “ill-informed”? Which was worse.

            • Billy:

              I had to look it up.

              MISINFORMED means having INCORRECT information

              ILL-INFORMED means just not having enough information.

            • Behr:
              I said “Some one earlier were said that I’m forcing my religious views on others. I haven’t even yet expressed my religious view yet. So I guess I’ll state it right here by letting God do most the talking cuz he does it best.”
              Then you said “Then you said you are NOT trying to force your religious views on others. HOWEVER.you immediately quoted your bible, which was, somehow, supposed to PROVE that you were not trying to force your religion on us???” That’s not even a proper quotation or understanding of what I said. I was saying that Since people seem to think I’m giving my religious view I might as well give it so I can be properly accused, that was the basic idea. And I quoted the Bible to show you what the Bible says about abortion. Not to prove that I wasn’t giving my Religious opinion. What ever gave you that Idea I’ll never know. Cuz beyond a shadow of a doubt it was not thus presented.

              By the way. My first post was against Ryan’s view cuz I liked the guy until that debate when he seemed to be not thinking for himself any more, and was talking Romney’s Stuff, and took a half hearted stand against abortion. I was simply stating my disgust about this abortion issue and was not even intending on arguing anything(though the last thought of the first comment was better left unsaid at that time). But people attacked what I said and counter imposed their beliefs on me. So I defended my view like any person who has any salt would do. And they kept attacking my view so I kept defending it. Next time I’ll try to discuss these kind of subjects on a site or thread that about such things but I just didn’t realize all the flak I’d get over my statement if any.It really didn’t belong on this thread. But I don’t want to deaden my voice against this wrong.

              And Jacque’s first reply started like “Wow. *All* of your anti-choice/female opinions are appalling.” And you know I’d have to respond to that.” the morality police thing was later. And I didn’t even respond to that reply by the way cuz it wasn’t really malicious.

              And people keep misrepresenting what I say by putting
              there own twist on it and I have to explain those errors cuz then later on I’ll be quoted on what others say I say. It happens all the time in politics.

            • Rodger:

              I just reread your previous post (you don’t think people actually read long posts, do you?).

              OK. I agree. You never DID say you were NOT “trying to force your religious views on others.” You apparently DO want to do so, and I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

          • Well, the morality/religion police comment wasn’t so harsh to me. “Malicious” is probably not the proper term. I just wasn’t sure how to say it.

            I don’t expect anyone to study all the same imformation I do concerning the Bible.But I want them to know for themselves whether
            or not the Bible is true. Not cuz they think it is or some told them it isn’t true.

            There are already laws in place that allow people to force developing humans not to live because of the preconceived idea that an incomplete baby is not a human. And I have the right and duty as a U.S. Citizen to take a stand against it. (and I’m not saying you said I don’t have a right. That’s just what is supposed to come after one says something to that nature)

            And I did consider the woman’s situation. But I can’t agree with killing the developing child.

            • Their is no middle ground between life and death. That’s one of the reasons it’s so hard to come to points of agreement.

            • Rodger:

              It is clear that you have no interest in learning or hearing any other viewpoint, since you have a pat answer.

              I asked you to CONSIDER the situation of the woman.
              I asked you to CONSIDER the situation of the unwanted child.

              You are apparently one of those
              who want to force the woman
              to have the unwanted child,
              whose life is then pure hell,
              so he knows no better
              than to turn to crime
              –and THEN you want to kill.

            • Billy:

              You’re probably right. Opiate of the masses, maybe? I know my mom was a lot happier than I, once they got her Alzheimer’s medicine right.

            • I CONSIDERED the woman’s situation. I was reading this article by a bias “pro-choice” writer(and I’m not saying I’m not bias)before I posted my last posts.
              http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/fetusperson.shtml
              But there is no way I an compromise to saying that a woman has the right to kill developing offspring for any reason. They say the developing should be allowed to be killed. I say the developing child should not be aloud to be killed. The only middle ground would be to be aloud to half kill the child witch is impossible and makes no sense.

              I CONSIDERED the unwanted child. The only thing we can do is everything in our power to make the child feel wanted which there should be a whole lot more money going into helping unwanted children than helping abortions. And if you havn’t noticed lots of the children
              these days seem unwanted and if some people had their way they wouldn’t even have the kids they have. This is largely due to the increasing selfishness of people as a whole and that’s a topic that I don’t want to get into really.

              And honestly which child is more unwanted? The one terminated and lying in a trash can full of dead fetus, embryo and children nearly developed and developed babies? Which I have seen photo documentation and it is a disgusting sight.
              Or a child put into a foster program, orphanage or gets adopted? Who
              most likely at least has food and clothing and LIFE and a chance to fight for himself? I know not every child finds his happiness like he wants. But many do.

              No developing child has found their happiness dead
              on their way to a Cosmetics factory to be turned into cosmetics.
              http://www.skeptictank.org/files/mys2/deadbaby.htm and that not the only source for this information. Its just the one I choose.

              As for mothers who kill their babies against the law are so selfish
              that they’d risk their own life than have the responsibility of a baby
              and are not in their right mind and pro-life people can not be held accountable for such irrational behaviour. And really its just as much murder done in a back alley or in an abortion clinic.

            • Rodger:

              First, just to resolve a pet peeve, and since you are not the only one using it, please let me correct: it is not “I am not bias.” Makes you sound like a Michelin tire. The term is “I am not biased.”

              Second, by “consider,” I meant, you know, the dictionary meaning, “to think CAREFULLY about” (ie, have concern), not “come up with talking points.”

              When I asked you to “consider the woman,” I meant that you should THINK about WHY women have abortions. Instead of getting the old white men together and passing new laws about young women, try to get to the ROOT of the problem. WHY do women think they must have an abortion? What can be done to help solve the problems that make abortion necessary (at least in their intelligent consideration)?

              Third, you admit that if abortion is made illegal that women will be forced to go to back-alley butchers, because you are not attempting to solve THEIR problems. But, no, when the woman dies in the back alley, I wouldn’t call it murder, unless YOU want to take the rap.

            • 1st,thank you for teaching me something I needed to know. “Biased” not
              “bias”

              2nd, You had to bring up “the ROOT of the problem”. And that starts before the baby is conceived. Two large contributing factors to unwanted pregnancies(yet not the only)

              Problem number 1, Sexual education: Kids these days are learning more than the need to know about sex these days and schools are showing kids sexual education video that are nothing short of soft core porn. Giving to much explicate content concerning sex creates sexual feeling in these young people and then the do what they’ve learned. Know one needs to know about sex until they are old enough to be able to correctly and safely do so and are old enough and able to care for an offspring if they have one.
              Problem Number 2, Media: Kids these days are being exposed to movies
              and games with nudity and sexual content. Kids have access in their own rooms to TV channels that air movies with nudity. And nudity does air on TV cuz I’ve witnessed it. The internet itself is full
              of pornography. If you don’t think young kids get on that stuff you’re dead wrong. There was one lady on an American base here in Germany that said she found one of her dads porn magazines when she was about 7 years old and went on porn every day after that and liked to play sex with her barbie dolls. She might have been exaggerating by saying everyday but still she was exposed. I’m saying this to say. And all of this sex every were and nudity and in Germany its right out in the opening. The media affecting every one really. I had two coworkers that in my workplace that personally said that they think about sex all the time. Why they said it out loud? I don’t know. We live in a sex drivin society. You are what you eat. If see and hear and read and play a lot of stuff that has sex in it and people irresponsibly having sex are in what your consuming. Most likely some irresponsible acts will come from it.

              Young people are being exposed to sex are having sex before they should or even really understand what it is for and is a huge contibuting factor to unwanted conceptions. I think we should start to end all these unwanted conceptions by reforming sexual education to discourage sex at young ages and before the person is responsible enough to have sex. Cleaning up the internet and making sure kids can’t access such sites. And really there should be no such thing as porno web sites. Kids these days have phones, Xboxs and Ipods. Lots of these are capable of accessing internet porn and is dangerous to the minds of these kids. But nobody seems to care about that. Though I would say parent are largly responsible for the perversion of their kids because they allow them devices witch can access the net and do not lock these devise from internet capability.

              I can see the case of a raped woman, I can see and sympothize with
              a young girl who is pregnant at 15. I can feel for the cases of incest. And see why they might consider an abortion. But that doesn’t make it right to get an abortion. But for women who have knowledge of sex and what its intended purpose and know what happens if they don’t “watch it” and knowingly fool around and then conceive. They have no excuse or case whatsoever and should reap the consequences of their actions. And having a kid is not all that bad. Kids are a gift from God. People talk about kids these days like their trash. Fact is one day they were a kid and some one took care of them and raised them.
              But they seem to have forgot and are unthankful.

              And we have all these woman and men constantly considering the “womans need” to kill her unwanted offspring. We need more people considering the case of the children. I’m more prone to take the child’s side because the child is completely defenseless and the woman are capable of giving their own case. And when they do I can never agree because it always involves the killing of developing children. And I cant agree with that and call myself “pro-life”.

              3rd. I didn’t say that they’d be “forced” to have back alley abortions. They’d have back alley abortion because they choose to do so. The other option is having the baby. The real problem is, how do i care for this child I’m having? Not how do I get rid of it? The women need to solve the problem of an unwanted child before it happens. That’s the best way to make it so a lot of these unwanted pregnancies don’t exist. I know a “pro-choice” person that takes that same view for PETE’S SAKE.

            • Rodger:

              On another thread, we went around and around, and I could NOT get anyone (hello, Nate) 🙂 to get into a discussion of SOLUTIONS to the abortion problem.

              I said repeatedly that women have LOTS of reasons why they feel they have no other choice than to have an abortion. Yet, nobody wanted to have an intelligent discussion. They just wanted to repeat zingers.

              I agree that the problem begins before the egg is fertilized, but as Billy says, you’re not going to stop people from having sex.

              I appreciate that you have offered REASONS why abortion happens, that is, (1) Sex education, (2) Sex in media, and (3) Porn on the Internet.

              This is a good start. Are we, as a society, over-sexed? You said we are not as over-sexed as Germany, and most first-world citizens seem to consider us hopelessly Puritanical. Is it reasonable that we can stifle communication about sex? And if so, do we really want to?

              What about the first amendment? What about natural urges? What about differing mores? (A Muslim associate said I had to wear a cloth top when we went swimming together–and I’m a guy!)

              I totally disagree that most women have sex permissively (like the comedian said, where ARE these oversexed women???). But it is a good beginning.

              I would like to have a civil discussion, and point number ONE would be, are we, as a society, oversexed? What can be done about it? And should we??

              Anyone? Anyone??

            • And I don’t believe in sex before marriage but I was trying to stay away from religion in my last post.

            • Behr,

              I know I’m arguing with you a little, but truth is you are very helpful
              in helping me better broaden my view point so don’t think every thing you said I consider not relevant. And you are trying help me to better understand the woman’s side. But My opinion can only be altered in a way that does not call for abortion.

            • Rodger:

              It seems to me that the discussion we want to have is, what is the nature of the situation the woman finds herself in. How did she get there? What are the variables?

              It is not really helpful to get into a pissing contest as to whether abortion should be allowed.

              But it could be helpful to say, how did she get to that point, and what can be done about society that would prevent the problem before it gets to the issue of abortion.

              And then, later, just assuming that abortion has been avoided, however that occurs, we should talk about child care issues. BUT the only way to make such a discussion work is to focus on ONE thing, so let’s just stick to your suggestion that we are an oversexed society, and we need to do something about that. What?

            • Rodger: I continue to want a serious discussion about abortion, since you’re the only one who is “pro-life” but is willing to look at another person’s view, and not just blindly parrot talking points.

              We agreed with the most basic point that sex causes children. And you went from there to say that ONE cause of a woman’s perceived need of abortion is too much sex.

              You have said you don’t believe people should have sex outside of marriage. Believe it or not, I was a virgin up to my wedding. But I don’t see that as something that can be, or should be enforced on others.

              We agree that we have all become desensitized, mostly because corporations use sex against us to make a buck. Shall we discuss if and whether we should try to stifle the media? And if so, how?

              But assuming we can’t come up with answers to that, let’s look at WHY women have abortions. According to WebMD, they are–

              Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.2
              Inability to support or care for a child.
              To end an unwanted pregnancy.
              To prevent the birth of a child with birth defects or severe medical problems. Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done.
              Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.
              Physical or mental conditions that endanger the woman’s health if the pregnancy is continued.

              OVER HALF of abortions are due to failure of birth control. So how about this question: Should we work to increase the availability and effectiveness of birth control? If we could eliminate more than half of all abortions that way, isn’t that a goal to seek? (That is not my position, I’m just proposing the question for discussion.)

              Rodger? Anyone else?

            • Might depend on just how those BC’s go about their job. Don’t think you are going to move any mountains on this one.

            • Sorry I took so long to reply. I’ve not been on for a while. Btw Behr: I never said the sex problem is not as bad in Germany. Heres my statement concerning Germany. “And all of this sex every were and nudity and in Germany its right out in the opening” I think its probably worse in Germany.

              In your last post you gave reasons of abortion. I’m going to answer those with answers based on preventing and coping. But understand there are more solutions than the ones I’ve inclosed. It might take a long to to explain all things concerning these issues. And no one would hardly read this if i made it as long as it would need to be to tap into everything.

              BIRTH CONTROL(CONTRACEPTIVE) FAILURE. Now when I first heard about drug birth control when I was a kid I was very skeptical of the whole Idea. Because I didn’t and still don’t see how some drug or chemical means can always effectively prevent the fertilization of an egg. I believe it’s foolish on the part of people to put any kind of faith in a not so great success rate method concerning something this important. Maybe it proves to be more fun when use using drugs(Don’t need to expound). I understand that a manufacturing defect could render a condom useless but is a whole lot less like than drug failure.
              SOLUTION. Use more reliable prevention methods and more expensive condoms lol. And the studying, design and manufacturing of more reliable contraceptive prove to be helpful.

              And I understand that we can’t make every one never be involved with some one of the opposite sex intimately until their married. But if every one tried to keep it in the confines of marriage we’d have a whole lot less unwanted pregnancy’s and this not being able to care for the child stuff.

              INABILITY TO SUPPORT OR CARE FOR A CHILD(Covering the money side). Though some may seem to be the case. As I see it in this world today many people think themselves as having insufficient funds. Yet many people these days have smartphones, cable plans,Big screen TVs, game consoles and a big budget for movies and music, game and bad spending habits. Some people can live with a whole lot less if they have to. My dad back in the mid 1990’s provided for 5 kids and a wife with a around 1500 or less dollars a month job. And our house rent alone was about 800 dollars and with other costs we barely squezed by but we didn’t miss one meal.
              I believe a lot of these “we can’t afford to raise a child” cases can be handled if those people would suck it up and spend less money. Though I know many people legitimately have money problems. And regarding people who have such problems. Their families should get involved and help them for Petes sake. That’s what my family does. That’s what our church family does.
              My brother a couple months ago was basicly broke with out work and I gave him money hoping it would help him get insurance back on his truck and my dad ended up getting him the insurance and now my brothers got a job that includes housing and utilities. I know this
              helping one another stuff and needy peoples problems is not ever gonna be fixed by government and people keep crying about but won’t lift one pinky to help the needy. That’s not a problem to be fixed by government by by the people themselves. I think that last part was a little off subject but still on in a way.
              SOLUTION. Less consumption on part the parent(s) in order to provide for the child, and more help from family and friends.

              INABILITY TO SUPPORT OR CARE FOR A CHILD(Covering the insufficient time side) Some mothers don’t seem to have the time because they are single an have to work a job to provide for them selves and their child. That means they will have to find some one to care for their child during their absence. I have a cousin who is a single mom who had a child in her teenage years. When she worked she would drop her child off at her aunts house on the way to work and pick her up on the way back. Now I think that my cousins mom helps care for her daughters child a lot of the time since my cousins job isn’t on the way to her aunt house any more.
              SOLUTION: Ask family and friends to help care for your child when you are to busy to do so. Seek day care and baby sitting options.(But I know that some times that can be expensive). but if people are creative enough they can make do.

              TO END AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY. That basically includes all the above and below so I won’t discus this one.
              SOLUTION: Try your best to get pregnant when you want to be.

              TO PREVENT THE BIRTH OF A CHILD WITH BIRTH DEFECTS OR SEVERE MEDICAL PROBLEM. You included “Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done.” Some people when pregnant have unhealthy diets that prevent the proper growth of their children. Some women eat food with lot of refined sugar,chocolate and a lot of food containing preservatives, and dyes and other harmful substances. (Which is in some cases they don’t know any better but some do). Lots of this stuff is harmful to our bodies but should not be consumed in pregnancy. Some drink alcohol,smoke, and do drugs. Now this is obviously irresponsible.
              SOLUTION. Legislation prohibiting high contents of harmful preservatives, dyes and other harmful contents in foods(which I believe would be in order considering that that is what is largly responsible for cell mutation)Better care on the part off the pregnant to ensure she has a proper diet to the best of ability. Better education in schools concerning safe food consumption and more research on deformity cases which obviously occur in pregnancy.

              PREGNANCY RESULTING FROM RAPE OR INCEST. I have to go back to internet pornography for this one because it is one of means by which men are corrupted into an almost irreversible sexually driven mind. I’m sure almost all rapes could be traced back to some sort of sexual material.
              Many things could lead up to incest and this is one area were I’m not so learned. But one of the reason for incest that i do know of is because of cold harsh and isolationist parents. Kids in such home have a tendency to do ignorant acts such as incest. In cases where kids are not alowd to have friends and be exposed to to much of the outside world have this huge curiosity that comes out in really weird ways and some times incest. I would have to say parents who have incest with there kids most likely have a messed up life style leading up to incest. And pornography is also another factor leading to incest.
              SOLUTION: Illegalization of pornography. Now I know this is something very hard to do and would require a large clean up program. But I believe if the government really wanted to end all of these sexual crimes they would do something to stop pornography.
              Also I believe it would serve women best if they dressed more properly. I know that lots of people who get raped are not wearing provocative clothing. But I do believe that wearing such clothing is
              helping to corrupt the minds of men. In some incest cases we need better parents.I don’t know what else to say there.

              PHYSICAL OR MENTAL CONDITIONS THAT ENDANGER THE WOMAN’S HEALTH IF THE PREGNANCY IS CONTINUING. Now if we are talking about minor physical or mental conditions (at least in comparison with the baby’s life) then I would have to say that such incidents cannot be prevented unless they are due to the mothers negligence and I still believe the baby’s life is more important of health of the mother. If we are talking about a life or death situation for the mother, child or both. This a very difficult subject and is used by pro-choice people as an argument for abortion as a whole.
              But truth be told it is not a proper argument for the justification of all these abortions people are having. Because this really is a life in the balance with another life. Which life is most important or weather or not the mother should be saved instead of letting both die? That should be decided by those concerned. Its kind of like this. You are driving with your friend in your car and you are driving up a mountain road. Suddenly at a curve a hitch hiker walks into your lane as a car on the other side of the road is coming around the same curve. The steep drop off on your right side would be certain death for you and your passenger. No one could possibly condemn you for hitting the hitch hiker instead of sacrificing the lives of you and your friend.
              SOLUTION: Perhaps there could be some legislation protecting people with such life and death cases. But not the allowance of abortion as a whole. And less negligence during pregnancy of mothers concerning the care of themselves and the baby.And better care on part of the doctors. (I know some one whose baby might have been saved if the doctor hadn’t been so negligent.)

              Some people may think I’m consenting to abortion here. But I’m simply stating that I don’t really know what is the best thing to do in such life and death situations and don’t know what I would do if I was a mother in such a case. Some might feel like they are killing the mother by saving the baby and some might feel they are killing the baby by saving the mother. So It is best left up to the conscience of those involved. If it was my life or the baby’s I think it best to let the baby live. But if it was both of us die or I get to live. That’s a little different. So I’m still not sure what I would do there.

            • Rodger:

              I do not disagree that your solutions would make a difference. But are they reasonable?
              USE OF CONDOMS–Good luck with that, but even so, there is a failure rate with condoms, too. Inventing a fool-proof birth control would be good, but it’s not likely, and if it were, people like Ryan would want to outlaw it, anyway.
              LESS CONSUMPTION–I agree that we are WAY to materialistic, but good luck overcoming the propaganda corporations throw at us.
              GET HELP FROM FAMILY–Easy to say, but is it possible? And, yes, day care can cost more than the her job pays.
              OUTLAW PRESERVATIVES AND OTHER CRAP IN OUR FOODS–Ideally, yeah, but Dude, we can’t even stop FrankenFood, which is not even real food. You think “regulations” could stop the multi-billion-dollar food industry?
              OUTLAW PORNOGRAPHY–Yeah, right. We can’t even seem to find them. And when we do, they just spring up elsewhere. And be careful with the “provocative clothing” idea–it’s really a “third rail.”
              LIFE OF THE WOMAN–I appreciate your anxiety about allowing this exemption. A religious person might say that it’s up to God and we shouldn’t interfere with who dies. Some religions don’t even think we should take medicine or have operations to thwart God’s plan.

              I agree that we should do what we can to minimize situations that put women into situations in which they feel adoption is the only answer. But my approach would be to do those things FIRST. If we eliminate the causes of abortion, I really don’t think anyone would want to have one.

              I do appreciate your thoughts and the time and trouble you went to. Trouble is, as you say, many of the causes of abortion make corporations a LOT of money.

            • In answer to your question. I believe such measures are reasonable in light of fact that they would help in resolving one our nations biggest issues.

              As I read your post I could not help but see that the seeming dominating factor that would pose a problem to all my solutions is human greed and selfishness. But two things I do believe can be overcome by legislation even though human greed sees to stand in the way.

              HARMFUL MATERIALS IN FOOD. Here in Germany there are laws in place preventing over a certain amount of pesticides chemicals and what not in food. Before I even new this fact I had noticed a huge difference in German food. It is a whole lot more real than American products
              They don’t have a lot of that factory made bread. Most bread is baked fresh every day. Dairy product such as yogurt, milk, and cheese is of a much higher quality. There isn’t a lot of fake meat products. They have a whole lot less of this TV dinner microwavable junk. They do have some fast food restaurants, but not nearly as many as America. But the restaurants that they do have that are not adopted American fast food places have good food quality. I believe its quite possible.

              OUTLAW PORNOGRAPHY. Here is a method I think will help and I’m sure more capable people could come up with something better. First legislation outlawing pornography and the legal right for government officials to destroy any and all pornography and prosecute distributeurs. Second, cyber crew dedicated to destoying internet pornography. Their method would be to erase any data containing pornography that they find from servers and if possible notifying offenders that prosecution will be affective on second offence and the destroying of private servers on second offence. I know at a first glance this sounds kind of controlling. But I don’t believe any thing so destructive and easily accessed by our youth should be legal.

              As for big businesses making all that money. I really don’t care about how much money they make while harming society. If they lose money that’s just to bad. Some of the people who work in making fake bakery goods would lose their jobs I know. But many jobs would be created in the real bakery business like in Germany. As for people who lose revenue from porn. Who cares.( and I know you were not condoning such means of revenue.)

              Use of condoms, Less consumption, and Getting help from family are all
              solutions that majorly would require compliance of society as a whole.
              How to get society to think and make rational and unselfish decisions
              to better society and the life and well being of our children?
              Is a question hard to answer when using natural means. I know a lot these issue are built up from bad ethics selfishness and bad training of children over the years. I know when older people talk about the past they are always saying how people cared more about each other and the families were run with a firmer hand and America was safer to the point that people didn’t even lock their doors. But over the years things have changed drastically. Selfishness is one thing that is choking America to death. This issue has to be solved before we can really solve a lot of these problems. I really think this is an underlying cause and think this is an issue in need of addressing.

            • Rodger:

              I agree completely that the “food” we are sold is not really food. Reminds me of the makers of Pringles fighting a tax on food in Britain–saying, you know, Pringles is not really food.

              I have a friend who spent several years working for the military in Germany. When she came back, first of all, she hadn’t aged a day. . .

              Then, I noticed that she had a very healthy diet. I wish that I could have made something work with her, because my diet is typical American crap, and I’m sure it’s gonna catch up to me.

              As for the “good old days,” I am not one to be sentimental about the days when the Red Scare made us all fearful about what we may say to be turned in to the FBI–I remember those days all too well. I also thought the common practice of lynching black people was probably not something to go back to. Kids were told to “duck and cover” because we expected nuclear war any day.

              While it’s true that some things have changed, I live in a city, I leave my door open–not just unlocked, but open (so my cat can look out)–when I run to the post office or store. I also take walks late at night and never fear–and I live in a very mixed community. I think our problem is more paranoia than danger.

              Regarding outlawing pornography, I am more annoyed by corporations using sex against us-profiting my titillation. The constant teasing does make us feel that we are missing out. Reminds me of a Mad Magazine cartoon, showing a Playboy reader bragging about how wonderful Playboy is, and then, in the last panel, he says, but it makes me feel that everyone in the world is having fun but me.

              Anyway, even the Supreme Court wasn’t able to define what pornography is. I know I’ve heard a lot of obscenity in this election, such as calling people Communists. But I digress.

              Even if we could adequately define pornography, and if we could eliminate it (which I think is a fool’s errand), I think the result would only be to make advertising porn that much more effective, and that much more common.

              I just don’t think you could stop corporations from abusing us with sex. First of all, according to this Supreme Court, corporations are people, money is speech, black is white, up is down, and greed is good–and thus, there is nothing we can do to limit anything they want to say or do.

            • And yes I know the money intake of these organizations is a big road block due to corruption and greed.

      • I think your not examining the options properly. there are many options on the table besides abortion for mothers that are to young to properly care their baby. Some people are to young to care for their own child is true. But there are other options than abortion. Like children homes and foster care and if your creative you can think of more. By the way I never said that I can make some one bring life into the world. They brought life into the world when they conceived…I’m saying they shouldn’t take life out of the world. I don’t how you can come across saying “you probably wouldn’t give to s**ts about the child after being born” Its largely hypocritical. Considering you your reply seems to strongly indicate you side on the abortion of the child. So if i probably don’t give two s**ts” about the child…than your position is so low that It can’t be expressed in words. Fact is I love kids and something tells me you don’t. And my “anti-choice female options are appalling”? Its simply incorrect and assumes that I do not hold responsible or condemn the male for aborting a child all so. But truth be told the woman has the final say so. But if both male and female are in agreement with the abortion they are equally guilty. If I got a girl pregnant (which could happen…witch i hope doesn’t…and No I’m not “in a relationship”) I would take responsibility of the child even if the mother wouldn’t. If I was younger I would try to get the child in foster care. Promoting life should be the natural instinct of a human.

        One last thing…I don’t see how it is so wrong to believe that the life a human is more important than the feelings, hardships, shame, time and incoveinence of its parents. Why do we
        consider it wrong to kill another human if there not in the womb and then say it is right to kill another in the womb. Who has the right to say that a baby is a human allowed to be killed? If a 12 year old boy’s single mother becomes a quadrapoligic and euthanasia is a lawful practice for that person in his third world country. And there are not any relatives willing to help him care and no money or insurance need to give him the proper care for his mom. He would have to care for his mom alone. Would it be right for him to kill her?(That kid would have a hard time to care for his mom and it would be a whole lot harder than caring for an infant for many reasons and he would for go many of opportunities that others have) I would hope that none of you would consider it alright for him to kill his mom. But it seems all right for one to kill a helpless child. WHY? Cuz the baby in the womb is not really life any ways?(lie)…Because the parent is to young? Because killing a mother’s worse? My position still stands. Abortion is murder. btw..Just Cuz my story about the boy isn’t a real testimony doesn’t make it irrelevant.”Woman’s choice” as is euthanasia are just a fancy ways of saying “legalized murder”. You can’t really separate the two.

    • That’s a good way to put it. Any woman with any amount of dignity as an *individual* (not simply as a Christian, but as an *individual*), will not vote for Romney or Ryan. And that really is a shame, when someone thinks they deserve to govern people whom they do not even respect to begin with.

      • Oh they will get a good % of the women vote but nothing like Obama will get. Old people vote. Even more old women vote but somewhat divided.

          • Yeah, it’s kind of depressing…. That’s why I had to clarify any woman with self-respect as an individual…..

          • Yes it does but I think it was the women’s vote that put Obama in the White House and left the Clintons outside . Not saying Bill would have done better but judging from his track record .. ….. .. vs a black politician from Chicago ………..well the women’s vote came just like expected. They went for a loser over a proven winner.

            • A lot of smart people do dumb things. I’ve seen anticipated effort win out over proven results more than once.

            • Billy:

              Yeah, we really want to believe.

              It’s like those forecasts on the political panel shows. Someone went back to see how true they were. They were correct LESS than half the time, yet, we forget what they said last week, so we think they’re brilliant each time.

  49. That moderator did a horrendous job keeping Bidon from continually throwing fits like a little arrogant brat. Ryan should have popped and let everyone go home early.

  50. I have heard stories about the so called goat herding trained Afghans. I am sure there are exceptions, but I sure wouldn’t want one behind me.

    • Sorry, I’m not one of the 47%. To them it would make a difference. As for me, my taxes are either going to them or for another war. Either way it’s more taxes, more regulation and more debt for the country. Both these turkeys have track records and they both suck.

      • It’s true; the 3rd party debate is happening on the 23rd of this month in Chicago. It will be televised (yes!!!). Looking forward to a debate between Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Virgil Goode, and Rocky Anderson.

        I watched the commentary from both the Green and Justice presidential and vp candidates (Stein and Anderson, Honkala and Rodriguez), and I at least appreciated that there was even decent (relative to previous) coverage.

          • Billy: Yeah. It’s a sop to free thinkers. If the third-party debate would have been earlier, at least it might have given us issues we could use in the major party debates, but they scheduled the third-party debate one day AFTER the last debate.

  51. I think Ryan needed more information and was somewhat naive at some of his points. Biden was laughing because he couldn’t believe the nonsense he was hearing. Ryan may be a good candidate for the future, but it is certainly not his time to take such an important position. He needs more experience, both personally and professionally.

    • Additionally, ever since the election four years ago, my instinct told me that it would take more than 4 years to have a satisfiable recovery. Bush left a total mess! So, I am leaning towards giving Obama/Biden my vote.

      • A big mistake but less of a mistake then going for the other guy. Either guy could turn it around tomorrow but that would level the playing field and the haves are not about to compete against the have nots on said field.

  52. People don’t seem to have any idea what the veep debate was about.

    The “new and improved” rabid Romney made the sophisticated Obama look lethargic. So the Obama people were depressed.

    Biden’s job was nothing to do with points or votes or swaying anybody. Biden’s job was to fire up his own base again. So all these complaints and criticisms are irrelevant. HE WASN’T TALKING TO YOU.

    The Obama base is now fired up again, and if Obama does a fair to good job on Tuesday, his campaign should be back on track–thanks to Biden’s performance. Again, Biden wasn’t talking to you.

  53. Goethe Behr —

    Biden — better known as the Delaware Bidet — is no smarter than a 5th grader.

    If he won the “debate” — how smart does that make Ryan…?

    Sad state of affairs, when such numbskulls hold high offices (and the people actually vote for such human trash).

    • Surfisher: You didn’t read my post. I was saying it doesn’t matter whether he “won.” His assignment was to counter the impression that liberals are wimpy. And he was mostly talking to his base, to get them fired up again. That appears to have happened.

      Biden did look silly smiling all the time–but Ryan was smirking like an idiot the whole first half, too. Why isn’t anyone pointing that out?

        • Billy: That’s ordinarily true, but even immediately after the first debate, most of Obama’s supporters said he didn’t do well. First time I’ve ever seen that. Usually, as you say, everybody says their guy won.

          That’s why Biden’s performance was so necessary. For a solid week, the media were droning on about how awful Obama did. His advisors were frustrated, his supporters were demoralized. THAT is why Biden came out swinging–ONLY to boost the troops, and that seems to have been successful.

          By the way, I caught a Daily Show on Hulu, in which Jon Stewart spent the whole show saying how badly Obama did. But to illustrate it, he showed several Obama comments back-to-back. BUT, when I saw the clip, I thought I was watching a different debate.

          http://www.hulu.com/watch/409405#i0,p9,d0

          You only have to watch less than a minute, 3:15 to 4 minute point if you don’t have much time.

          The only reason Obama “didn’t seem to do well” is that he stood motionless–while Romney was jumping around, waving his arms, pointing, and foaming at the mouth.

          • Yeah he did stand there with his head down for the most part like a kid being corrected by his parents. Hard to believe he had such dumb handlers as to let him come across that way. It’s the last debate that counts the most though so my money is still on Obama to win.

            • Billy: Naw. Romney pulled that number out of his butt, so that he could tell the fat cats why he needs so much money. Total fabrication.

              As I noted elsewhere, I think Obama has 12% of the electorate from Blacks and Hispanics who would vote. Other ethnicities seem evenly divided. But he can only count on 13% of the electorate from white men. So he will need about 26% from white women. But women are only half the population, and we meed to remove non-whites, so Obama would have to take white women by about 60%. I don’t think he can pull that well anymore (unless Obama can find away to look brilliant in the last two debates).

              We have seen consistently that people do not actually vote for what’s good for them, so you can’t look at who would benefit.

            • I hear you but money talks even louder and he does have support. Illinois, NY, and Calif are Obama’s no matter what.

            • Billy: Obama will probably take seven of the top ten states, by population. Probably six of the second ten. But that’s still not enough.

  54. Biden was rocked and was rude. He was arrogant and he was wrong on his facts. Ryan was up to the task and was interrupted often. He was a gentleman and never acted nervous, pissed or using scare tactics unlike Biden.

    Time for the 1 term president to move on as he promised. He failed.

  55. I find it comical that the Romney/Ryan ticket consistently try to paint the economy and jobs as if the country is on the verge of failure. BUSH did this to the country. It’s not like Obama can wave a magic wand to reverse it all, end two wars, and stop Iran. Let me just say that I am a small business owner, I make 20% more money now than I did under the Bush Administation. I find it to be very un-american, that the opposing party attempts to paint the the current administration as the cause of the failure of America. In politics, when there is no problem, you have to invent one… Thats how you get votes, that you get elected, scaring the American people.

  56. Zac, Pete, and Jacque:

    I do try to be constructive, but doggonit, English is a second language to Billy, and we have to keep schooling the boy. That’s why they call him Hillbilly Malone.

  57. PRINCIPLES we must stand by!

    “A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have….” Thomas Jefferson

    “They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security” BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

    “When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered.” DOROTHY THOMPSON

    “Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will.” FREDERICK DOUGLAS

    “Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.” —Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing” EDMUND BURKE

    “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” ABRAHAM LINCOLN

    • Sounds good but then look at what guys like Lincoln did with the Constitution. Not to mention the 600,000 + Americans he killed with his stupid war.

      • Billy Malone —

        So is your stance that when Presidents usurp power to negate the Constitution, We The People, should NOT stand by the principles stated above…?

        • Lincoln won re-election didn’t he. Bush got re-elected too. Think FDR is right up there with them too but he didn’t kill near as many Americans as Lincoln thus Lincoln remains in a class by himself. I real big surprise though was how many died under Clinton. Less than Bush but up there.

          • I’m sure that they had no idea how many people would die, but the Civil War has always seemed unnecessary to me. The Emancipation Proclamation was an after-thought, and while slavery was an important issue, the real point was whether states had a right to reverse their decision to join the union. I’m not sure I could justify a war just to keep states from deciding they didn’t want to play anymore. And the north and south STILL don’t get along. . .

      • Hillbilly, who are you to judge that the war between the states was Lincoln’s war, or that he killed the 600,000 people. What planet are you from? You sound like one of these people who can only look backward and judge via the rear view mirror!

        • I stand corrected, At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000.

          • Billy:

            First of all, I want to apologize if anyone uses that name for you. I meant it as a joke and affectionate tease.

            Second: With this kinda stuff, it helps to give a link.

            For 110 years, the numbers stood as gospel: 618,222 men died in the Civil War, 360,222 from the North and 258,000 from the South — by far the greatest toll of any war in American history.

            But new research shows that the numbers were far too low.

            By combing through newly digitized census data from the 19th century, J. David Hacker, a demographic historian from Binghamton University in New York, has recalculated the death toll and increased it by more than 20 percent — to 750,000.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/science/civil-war-toll-up-by-20-percent-in-new-estimate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

            • For perspective, the U.S. population in 1860 was 31,443,321. Today’s population is 312,780,968.

              So if the Civil War occurred today, and the death rate were the same, we’d lose almost SEVEN AND A HALF MILLION people.

            • No problem with the name t ll as I been spending way too much time in Kentucky anyhow. My daughter calls me the same thing.

              As for Lincoln ………..what can I say, they were all his own people too. Makes Saddam look like a choir boy.

  58. Do NOT vote for either the Barack or the Mitt creature (voting for the “lesser” of two evils still gets you evil)!

    Albert Einstein famously defined “insanity” as “doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.”

    Vote your conscience for a change — not your fears!
    —————————————————–

    MUST read article — too bad most won’t, since it’s longer than three sentences….

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/10/10/the-mass-insanity-of-american-voters/0/

    • Hurrah, we do have a choice there is a guy running with a proven track record but I doubt he will get 3% of the votes as the voters want and will get more of the same.

      • So you recommend not to vote one’s conscience…but the perceived lesser fear of one over the other…?

        • Not at all. I’m going with the best man that I think can do the job based on his track record It is neither of the two frontrunners.

  59. Vice President Biden kicked ass in this debate! I love how all the republicans are whining about him being “rude” and “disrespectful”…! LOL
    Repugs have proven themselves to be some of the rudest, most disrespectful turds I can think of.

    Joe Biden was tough, direct and didn’t suffer that fool, Ryan. Now the Repugs are Cryin’.
    Whaaa Whaaa. Biden kicked ass!!!

  60. In the veep debate, I thought it was interesting that Ryan gave an answer that was the exact OPPOSITE of the one given by JFK.

    John F. Kennedy said that the Vatican would NOT dictate his actions as president.

    Ryan said, “I don’t see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith.

  61. One thing is absolutely beyond debate: MARTHA RADDITZ ROCKS! WE have some absolutely AWESOME women political journalists in this country now: Christine Amanpour, Radditz, Gwen Ifill, Margaret Warner, and oh, my god, who have I forgotten on NPR…legendary. Covered the Conventions…she’s great, too. Let’s not forget that these women kicked the doors open for other women to have these jobs.
    Were not taken seriously for most of their careers.

    AMAZING LADIES!

      • WARNING, WARNING, WARNING:

        Voting for either Barack or Mitt would be legitimizing further the corruption that seems to have no end in the aim to destroy Americans’ Freedoms and Prosperity!

        If Barack or Mitt win — Free America ENDS in 2012!

        VOTE for Garry Johnson — or face the dire consequences of failing to do so — TIME TO WAKE UP AMERICA!

        (Would love to write-in Dr. Ron Paul — but ALL indications are that such write-in votes for Ron Paul will be screened and then thrown out — that’s how much the Establishment fears the Good Doctor!)

    • Have the American People been reduced again to vote for the “lesser of two evils” — are there no other options?

      My conscience cannot allow me to vote for the “lesser of two evils”, because, that means that an Evil will still get elected!
      —————————————————————————————————

      1) The Barack is the evil we know — a Socialist minded professional politician that will have most of its venomous teeth pulled out when republicans win more seats this election. Thus, it will lack the ability to do much more damage than it’s done already. If the Barack is “elected” it will end its last term in a whimper.

      2) The Mitt — the evil we don’t know…yet. But all indicators are that it is supported by the Central Banks. And that it supports Israel unquestionably to the detriment of our own national security (will start more unconstitutional wars to protect Israel, not the USA).

      Should the Mitt win, we may be in bigger trouble — since it assured itself of no competition for the next republican nomination (see the false vote it made the GOP do on its behalf — THE TELEPROMPTER “KNEW” IN ADVANCE HOW THE VOTE WILL GO…SHAME, SHAME SHAME on the Mitt creature):

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=77W5OKStO5s

      —————————————————————-

      So, unless we vote for Gary Johnson — who wants to restore Liberty and Prosperity, what would you get instead:

      Final four years of ‘toothless’ BO — or 8 more years of the Mitt (with the possibility it has groomed its spawn — 5 Mormon Sons — to keep the dynasty going) for many decades to come…?!

  62. One of you commented on making 20% more in your small business than you did under Bush. Have you calculated in the rising costs of everything? I don’t know if you people are middle class, but the middle class people I know are drowning.

    • Stacy:

      Exactly. Stock market doubled to record levels, Profits blew away previous record in the boom years, YOUR productivity has dramatically increased, adding to profits.

      The corporate world is rolling in dough.

    • Would ask all that find merit in the below to SPREAD IT! Thanks.
      ————————————————————————————–

      VOTE for Gary Johnson (do not write-in Ron Paul, please)!

      Here is why:

      The Establishment fears Ron Paul so much that they will do anything to stop him and his (our) movement for Liberty on the election level (since so far they have not been able to control the internet, and thus shut us down completely)!

      The Major Networks will show after the election NOTHING for Ron Paul (not even that he got ANY of the Vote, for that would be admitting that some actually dared to write-in his name).

      The Apparatchiks have been instructed to shred all write-in ballots where Ron Paul’s name appears (for proof just watch after the election and see if Ron Paul is even mentioned, let alone how many votes he got)!

      Gary Johnson is on the ballot in all 50 States — so a vote for him is a vote COUNTED against the wannabe despots of America! (Plus, if he breaks the 5+% level, the Libertarian Party (Ron Paul’s original party) will be eligible for federal funds to the tune of about 90 million dollars for the next election — and no longer will be a financial shoe-string operation!!!).

      VOTE GARY JOHNSON (or write-in Ron Paul if you must) — as long as you vote for what you realize is BEST for our Nation, and NOT get bamboozled into voting again for the “lesser of two evils”: the Kenyan Barack or Mitt the Mormon (this path only leads to more and bigger evil, for the next election cycle…should there be one)!!!

  63. Hey obama, How are you doing to today? im fine I am going to at the white house in the Goochland High School to today. Pepole need come over here to G.H.S this year.

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