Federal Government shutdown enters day 3

Not much news to report other than the shutdown powwow at the White House Wednesday afternoon ended in stalemate.

Report from the New York Times:

Day 3 of the government shutdown will dawn as Day 2 did, with neither President Obama and the Democrats nor the Republicans backing down and with the House sticking to a legislative strategy that has so far been fruitless.

After a private meeting among President Obama and four Congressional leaders ended Wednesday night without a break in the budget standoff, House Republicans on Thursday are expected to continue their attempts to pass piecemeal spending bills that would reopen sections of the government, one program at a time.

But Democrats in the Senate have made it clear that they are unlikely to approve any House proposal unless it is a spending bill that would keep money flowing to the government with no strings attached. And since the Republicans have not abandoned their insistence that any budget measure include language defunding the president’s health care law, the government shutdown continues.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid did have a testy exchange with CNN’s Dana Bash on Wednesday. Reid was being questioned about why the Senate rejected funding for the National Institute of Health to keep clinical cancer research trials for children operating during the shutdown. Here is video of the question and Reid’s now infamous response:

Which side (if either) has your best interests in mind in the short and long term?

  • Bama

    Why would the House get to pick and choose who is most deserving of being helped during this shutdown of their causing?
    What they want to do is restore piecemeal until they get to Obama Care and then stop. They have tried 45 times now to stop Obama Care and no matter how many more they try it thankfully will not be stopped!

    • Josh

      I think their approach is revealing that both sides are obsessed with Obamacare. The democrats are obsessed with keeping it and the republicans are wanting to repeal it.

      • Goethe Behr

        Josh: Right. It does seem insane.

        The law was passed three YEARS ago. Why didn’t Republicans pick on individual items to “correct”? Instead, they just kept trying to repeal the whole thing 42 TIMES, which they knew wouldn’t pass, but would be a fun distraction for the masses.

        If they had said, “let’s change this,” and “let’s change that,” they’d look better.

        And, as you say, Democrats seem adamant about keeping it intact. They should have argued, “ok, so, what don’t you like?”

        As usual, both parties are playing games, and the rest of us are standing here, saying WTF??

        • Josh

          You mean like they’re trying now? Right now they’re trying to piece-meal budgetary items through and the Democrats won’t budge. If the Democrats won’t budge even to allow spending for children with cancer (like that video shows) what makes you think they’ll budge on the mandate?

          The forcing of American’s to buy health insurance or face taxation and the IRS, and everything else that comes along with breaking the law, is something they won’t budge on. It is also the thing that Americans are most against.

          This thing was passed in an evil way originally. Polls againsts it, bi-partisan support against it, lying to the public about what was in it, not even reading the bill before passage (oh, don’t you love Nancy Pelosi…’we have to pass the bill in order to find out what’s in it’ or something like that).

          This mandate has been a holy grail for the democrats for decades. They aren’t about to let it go.

          Considering the way it was passed, absolute repeal is the only just option.

          • Goethe Behr

            Josh: I do think the piecemeal passage of parts of the budget is a good strategic move.

            Although, it could cause a lot of trouble down the line. We could have laws pass, and then when the budget comes due, a different Congress could do a de facto repeal by eliminating the funding. Seems like it would just be endless rehashing.

            How many piecemeal bills would have to be passed to fund the whole budget? Does anybody know?

  • Tess Trueheart

    Grover Norquist (president of Americans for Tax Reform) explained the shutdown in very understandable terms: “The only confusion that comes out is that Cruz stood on the side and confused people about the fact that every Republican agrees. He said if you don’t agree with my tactic and with the specific structure of my idea, you’re bad. He said if the House would simply pass the bill with defunding he would force the Senate to act. He would lead this grass-roots movement that would get Democrats to change their mind. So the House passed it, it went to the Senate, and Ted Cruz said, oh, we don’t have the votes over here. And I can’t find the e-mails or ads targeting Democrats to support it. Cruz said he would deliver the votes and he didn’t deliver any Democratic votes. He pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away.
    So then the House said, breaking completely with Cruz because Cruz thinks if you’re not defunding the whole thing it’s treason, that there’s delay. There’s getting rid of medical device taxes. They’ve done a series of things to hold together Republicans and break with Cruz. But because we started with the Cruz approach this got to the shutdown”.

    • Surfisher

      Tess Liehard — still shilling for dollars…?

      How much are you getting paid to shill for Obama on this blog…what was it…30 pieces of silver…?

      • Tess Trueheart

        By the same token, Surfisher, who pays you to troll the internet and post your brand of crap?

        • Surfisher

          Tess Liehard — “by the same token”…so you admit you are a paid shill.

          • Josh

            Is Grover living in a hole in the ground? He’s got Cruz on the brain. Wonder who he supports for president? I’d bet it isn’t Cruz, and he’s taking opportunity to destroy him. His comments don’t take reality into account.

            Boehner was going to push a bill through that gave Reid what he wanted. It was House republicans that revolted and did not give Boehner the votes to pass the bill. All the house is doing is using the power the people gave them. They are following legal, established, processes to put laws into place.

            The issue at hand is Obama and Reid do not want to negotiate….well, they’ll negotiate *after* the bill is passed. Yes, that’s what they’re asking for. They are asking Boehner and the House to pass 100% of what Reid and Obama are asking for…then, after they sign it into law, they will negotiate with the House on what is put into the bill they just passed.

            Let’s order a burger, and then negotiate how the cook will make it after it shows up our plate. Or better, let’s order a burger off the menu for $10, then negotiate with the waiter on how much we’re going to pay…after we’ve eaten.

            Cruz is just one of many. The House likely would have stood regardless. Grover is just tearing him down so his candidate will look better.

  • David

    Bill of Rights…We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

    • Tess Trueheart

      Beautiful words, David. But isn’t reading the constitution a little bit like reading the Bible. The interpretation lies within the eyes and mind of the beholder. Which one of the choices would you go with alter, abolish, or institute new?

      • Surfisher

        Tess Liehard — LOL, you are further exposing yourself here for the Obama paid shill that you are.

        “Interpret” the US Constitution…??? Nice parroting of what Barrack Hussein has said and stands for — “interpreting”…in plain folks language: TRYING TO DESTROY the US Constitution. And of course you’ll have to state that, since your goal is the same!

        Shame on you!

        • Tess Trueheart

          Shame on you, Surfisher….it’s a sin to lie.

          • Surfisher

            Tess Liehard — than why do you keep doing it?

  • http://gravatar.com/billymalone billymalone

    Any time the government mandates anything it only benefits a chosen few. Want affordable health care, bring back the quack doctor and kill all the lawyers.

  • vamospj

    for me if these baffoons of the republican Party and the tea party who are causing all this mess, could not be also paid for all these days there are causing the shot down, they will never do it again so the legislation need to change that protect them, after all they are also government employees. those who cause all these veterans suffering and don t even care, because their children and wives are so well protected they can stay without, because they have stack up! so in case you forgot they have it all and who care about you?

    • Josh

      Remember though, we would not be here unless the Democrats had not forced a program onto the country that it didn’t want, and still doesn’t want. This was passed when the country didn’t want it, polls still show the country doesn’t want it. It was passed along strict party lines, with some Democrats even voting against it.

      Yeah, everybody wants better cheaper healthcare…who doesn’t want something good for less?

      But nobody wants to be ‘forced’ to buy health insurance. That’s what the bill is really about…forcing people to buy health insurance…and raising the requirements to a point that service customization is greatly reduced.

      For example, if you’re a couple past child bearing years, why should you be forced to buy a plan that includes pre-natal care?

      Sure, make it better and cheaper is a good idea. But when we actually look at what their idea is, its got too many bad ideas to stay in place.

      Not to mention the required $890 Billion in spending and $1 Trillion in additional taxes over the next 10 years….what about beyond? Aren’t we already in a bad economic state with almost $800 Billion/year in deficits already?

      How is taking $200 Billion/year out of the private sector a good idea in these economic times?

    • Tess Trueheart

      vamospi…Several Congressmen have publicly stated they are refusing pay or are donating it to a charity. It is interesting to note that lawmakers are not donating their actual salary…just for the days of the shutdown. HOWEVER, even if a lawmaker decided to refuse his or her pay, the compensation is considered mandatory spending in the federal budget, and the Constitution requires that House and Senate lawmakers’ pay cannot be altered until the start of a new term. So, lawmakers will face a choice: They can continue receiving their pay and then write checks to the U.S. Treasury or their favorite charity, or they can opt to have their pay withheld and placed in escrow for the duration of the shutdown. It will be interesting to see the exact donation amounts, if they remember at the end of the term to actually donate.

      Without delay,these congress men (women) should be donating to the wives of all non commissioned personnel in the armed service. The majority of these women use WIC, to help supplement the nutritional welfare of their young children (ex: WIC foods include iron-fortified infant formula and infant cereal, iron-fortified adult cereal, vitamin C–rich fruit and vegetable juice, milk, eggs, cheese, beans, and peanut butter). This program was shut down.

      • Surfisher

        Tess Liehard — you state: “The majority of these women use WIC, to help supplement the nutritional welfare of their young children (ex: WIC foods include iron-fortified infant formula and infant cereal, iron-fortified adult cereal, vitamin C–rich fruit and vegetable juice, milk, eggs, cheese, beans, and peanut butter). This program was shut down.”

        So you admit that Obama is going after the weakest to FORCE a “cry” for his PERNICIOUS Agenda against the American people — after all, he also shut down the “Free school children Touring the White House” when he was unhappy with the “budget cuts” at that time!

        And you still shill for him…WOW, what a good little apparatchik you are!

  • Goethe Behr

    The New York Times, Thursday, October 3, 2013

    Boehner Tells Republicans He Won’t Let the Nation Default
    Speaker John A. Boehner has told colleagues that he is determined to prevent a federal default and is willing to pass a measure through a combination of Republican and Democratic votes, according one House Republican.

    The lawmaker, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Mr. Boehner had said he would be willing to violate the so-called Hastert Rule if necessary to pass a debt limit increase. The informal rule refers to a policy of not bringing to the floor any measure that does not have a majority of Republican votes.

    Other Republicans also said Thursday that they got the sense that Mr. Boehner would do whatever was necessary to ensure that the country did not default on its debt.

  • Josh

    um..David and Tess – that quote is actually in the Declaration of Independence, not the constitution.

    In a way we abolish our government every 2 years when we have national elections. We do it in small ways, but the shift in direction can be felt. For example, when the Democrats took Congress in 2006, spending (which had been going down) started going up with their first takeover of the budget in 2007. After Obamacare was passed, the nation revolted and in the 2010 elections there was a larger loss for the Democrats than in 90’s ‘Republican Revolution’ as it is called.

    In 2010, before the revolt, Obama and the democrats passed Obamacare on strict party lines. No ‘bi-partisanship’, not even keeping with ‘the will of the people’ – polls have always been clear that America doesn’t want Obamacare.

    Now, after a poll showing 77% believe the Mandate should be held or repealed, the Democrats (Obama, the majority in the Senate, and minority in the House) still are pushing for the bill.

    It seems Obama, Reid, Pelosi, and those they lead, are disenfranchising the right of the people to representation. This doesn’t spell well for them in 2014.

    • Tess Trueheart

      um…Josh..bit of a nitpicker, aren’t you? More than 200 years ago, our Forefathers set out to establish a government based on individual rights and the rule of law. At that time it was said that “the Declaration of Independence was the promise; the Constitution was the fulfillment”. The two were so totally intertwined that our forefathers referred to them as our founding documents.

      • Surfisher

        Tess Liehard — stick to shilling (that’s all you are good for here), reasoning is not your forte…Lol.

  • Josh

    I’ve got an idea. How about they just pass the pieces they both agree on? That would solve things. Currently both are obsessed with Obamacare. If neither continues to budge, it seems that’s the only way out.

    The house is actually being more cooperative. The senate just keeps trying the same bill over and over, while the house has had several different bills. And the president is running around the country telling stories.

    Both are obsessed with Obamacare. But Obama and the Senate want to cause pain to Americans so they can use it as political leverage. That’s why they are refusing the smaller bills. That’s why they think republicans will cave in.

    The whole thing would pass away if they would just pull out the things they disagree about, and pass what they both agree on. They agree on like 99% of the Senate bill, just pull out the 1%. Isn’t that collaboration? Isn’t that working together? Isn’t that bi-partisanship?

  • Goethe Behr

    I just thought this was funny–FROM FOX NEWS

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/30/five-reasons-americans-already-love-obamacare-plus-one-reason-why-theyre-gonna/

    There’s a reason Republicans have been rushing to try and defund the Affordable Care Act before October 1, when major sections of the law take effect.

    Republicans know what polls show — that most Americans don’t know what’s in ObamaCare, but when told what the law actually includes, a strong majority support the law.

    Once state health insurance exchanges take effect, and premiums for all Americans go down, Republicans know the law will only become more popular and harder to repeal.

    Five Reasons Americans Love Obamacare:

    1. ACA allows young Americans to stay on their parents’ insurance plans

    2. ACA bans insurance companies from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions

    3. ACA offers tax credits to small businesses to buy insurance

    4. ACA requires companies with more than 50 employees to provide health insurance

    5. ACA provides subsidies to help individuals afford coverage

    =============

    I just thought that was funny, coming from Fox. It’s as surprising as when Fox had a Democratic advisor on two weeks ago and he trashed Obama over Syria.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Most voters are “Low information voters”, thinking that Obamacare gives them affordable health care. Health Care is DIFFERENT than health coverage!

    Wait until their premiums start rising (families and married couples get dinged the most); the millennials are forced to purchase coverage or face a stiff penalty (it really increases by year 3); and the insurance coverage that they enjoyed has dried up and is no longer there; employers cut back the hours to 28 to avoid having too many eligible employees that they are now required to cover.

    While the US and Canada are comparable in geographic size, population wise Canada is 1/20th of the US (about the size of California). Obamacare is really about bankrupting the insurance companies and bringing us into a single party payor system. If it takes 6 months to see a specialist in Canada, how long do you think it will take in the States with a population of our size?

    Lastly, the REASON that most doctors/hospitals didn’t protest Obamacare—–Free money that came in the form of grants and awards. Their attitude is watch and see and hopefully the states we live in will opt out. Wait until their salaries are affected and the best and brightest go elsewhere.

    Obummercare…..A socialist’s solution!

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: Hardly bankrupting insurance companies! As Nate notes, they are able to charge MORE than before.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    100 million to improve inpatient and outpatient care and new research opportunities

    The Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) today announced that _____________will receive a $100 million grant for construction and renovation of a health care facility that provides for outpatient clinical services, inpatient tertiary care and research facilities. The funding was made available by the Affordable Care Act. The Health Resources and Services Administration is an agency of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

    Eligibility for the award was limited by Congress to institutions of higher education with an academic health center at a public research university in the United States that contains the State’s sole public academic medical and dental school. The Health Resources and Services Administration was charged with creating an independent, competitive process for the selection of the grant award.

    “This award will enable ____________to strengthen their ability to provide needed inpatient and outpatient clinical care, while at the same time making substantial improvements in their research capabilities,” said HRSA Administrator Mary K. Wakefield, R.N., Ph.D.

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Wednesday, December 29, 2010 7 months AFTER Obamacare was signed into law. Payment for keeping silent

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: Why did you redact OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY?

      And the end of the release:

      A key criterion for this award required the winning institution’s State to provide evidence of a dedicated funding mechanism to supply the resources necessary for project completion, as this grant could comprise no more than 40 percent of the total project’s cost.

      “As with many of HRSA’s grants, this open competition was judged by an external objective review committee who met and scored each application,” said Wakefield. “The review committee was staffed with non-Federal experts in the areas of health care administration, health facility construction and design and capital finance.”

      • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

        My institution received 200 million in awards. Why do you think I redated it? Repercussions!

        BTW, Insurance companies only make $$$ if they have consumers. Once the premiums and deductables become too exorbitant, companies will direct their employees to the single party payor system.

        Some companies have already started excluded spouses. It won’t be a giant sweep, but incremental changes that will put the insurance companies out of business.

        http://www.worldmag.com/2013/08/ups_no_longer_delivering_health_insurance_to_spouses

        • Goethe Behr

          Daisy: I don’t think anyone here picks on typos–unless they are hilarious.

          But there is a factual issue in the link you sent. You make it sound as if companies are dropping people wholesale, whereas they are just saying they don’t want to pay for employees of other companies:

          “’We believe your spouse should be covered by their own employer—just as UPS has a responsibility to offer coverage to you, our employee,’ the memo states.

          “The change only applies to spouses currently employed and eligible for employer-provided health insurance. Stay-at-home moms and part-time workers won’t be affected.”

          • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

            Goethe,
            Maybe you don’t think it isn’t a “big deal” not having dual coverage, but it can be substantial to patients who have a chronic, life-theatening disease/illness. The 2nd company helps absorb the cost of the remaining balance.

            Incremental changes that seem petty at first, until they hit the consumer hard in the pocket. Start slow, then build up momentum. The NO “pre-existing condition” clause is also going to wreak havoc as well. It will allow users to make apply for insurance only when they need it (during open enrollment).

            • Goethe Behr

              Daisy: But that is NOT what the story at your link says. It says companies don’t want to insure OTHER company’s employees. AND it says if the spouse is not employed, he or she WILL be covered by the spouses employer.

            • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

              Goethe,

              The article implies if a spouse (who is offered insurance through their own employer) can no longer be dually insured by their spouse’s insurance company, hence dual coverage.

              It doesn’t apply to spouses who stay home or aren’t offered insurance coverage through their own employer
              It IS the first step to changing insurance policies that ultimately are designed to hurt the consumer and to make 3rd party payors un-attractive and cost prohibitive.

              Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are getting America’s attention. Senators who aren’t afraid to take on the establishment and play the same dirty games that the other side plays.

            • Goethe Behr

              As usual, it’s a battle for the sake of the battle.

              Caught on a local station hot mic, Rand Paul said, “I think… well, I know we don’t want to be here, but we’re gonna win this, I think.” October 3.

              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/rand-paul-mitch-mcconnell-hot-mic_n_4036591.html

              AND, apparently, in response, an anonymous administration official was quoted in the Wall Street Journal saying, “We are winning…It doesn’t really matter to us” how long the shutdown lasts. October 4.

              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/04/white-house-government-shutdown_n_4043961.html

      • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

        oops, “redacted”, not “redated”.

  • Goethe Behr

    Strategically, I think the GOP thought Obama would agree to some kind of negotiation in order to prevent a shutdown. And then, they were going to take another swipe at him in negotiations over the debt ceiling. My guess is that they were surprised that he didn’t cave.

    But since the first issue hasn’t been settled, the two issues will blend together, since the debt ceiling was expected to be hit as early as October 17.

  • Tess Trueheart

    Goethe…Texas has the third largest federal workforce in the country (the DC area and California, first and second) so we must be a haven for the so called low information congressmen.. Representative Randy Neugebauer, in a confrontation that took place at the World War II Memorial in DC, appeared to blame the Park Service for denying veterans access to the facility. Asking a Park Ranger to apologize for the shutdown. “How do you look at them and … deny them access?” he demanded. This was caught on camera by NBC. Did Representative Neugebauer forget he voted for the shutdown? Did it occur to him that the Park Ranger might be working without pay?

    If President Obama decides to negotiate over a political ransom for The Affordable Care Act, then he might as well call it a day. The followers of Ted Cruz and Rand Paul have set their feet in cement as John Boehner slowly loses control of the House. As third in line for the presidency, John Boehner should shoulder up and allow a vote in the House of Representatives. He doesn’t have to approve of the continuing resolution; he doesn’t have to vote aye; all he has to do is let the majority decide. Then all Democrats, all Republicans, all Tea Partriers, all others should accept the outcome.

  • Goethe Behr

    Folks: Here’s a question I’d like to post on the related threads, because I’m asking for a response:

    Both houses just voted unanimously to pay government workers retroactively for time lost. I mean, it was a nice thing to do, for people who are being used as pawns.

    HOWEVER, how can Tea Party legislators rationalize paying people for NOT working?? Isn’t that exactly counterpoint to the Tea Party philosophy? If they’re not on salary, shouldn’t they be paid only for the hours they work?

    Billy, in particular–what’s your feeling about paying bureaucrats for NOT working??

    • samreusser

      Goethe – how does this become specifically a Tea Party “fault”. last i checked the HOUSE passed a bill to pay Parks & Rec. In addition, it is Senate Dems stonewalling and POTUS stonewalling as well and will not negotiate. Plus Parks had enough excess to stay open. It is the Administration determining who and what gets shut down and Specifically POTUS going down the list saying,”close this, leave this, move money to keep ‘this’ open or to shut ‘that’ down”

      been watching too much MSNBC, NBC, CBS, & ABC & Mathis – have you???

      The Administration and Democrats should lose pay for thinking as a Monarchy and stonewalling regardless of what the People want. And keep in mind that 47% of the People are on the dole and that is who still supports the Administration.

      • Goethe Behr

        Sam: You misread what I wrote.

        I was asking a legitimate question
        –if people don’t work, why should they be paid?

        Eighty-five percent of the government is still working. And now Congress has said we’ll pay the other 15% for NOT working. So, what exactly is the point of a shutdown if we are spending just as much as usual–and on top of it, getting less work??

        I only pointed to the Tea Party because they are supposed to be the fiscally responsible people. Why are they voting to pay for nothing??

        (btw, I don’t watch ANY tv.)

        • Surfisher

          Goethe Behr — spot on!

          You finally got one right (after your usual 100 wrongs — so, statistics do work after all, LOL)! You are at 1%, kid! Congrats on the improvement.

          It is insane to pay Fed Workers RETROACTIVELY in FULL for NOT working — go to the Unemployment Line like the rest of all Americans and get your $200 check, instead of your BLOATED Federal Check that is many times that, FOR DOING NOTHING BUT CREATE RED TAPE!
          ————————————————————————————–

          The longer the Shutdown lasts — the More the citizens will be aware that WE DO NOT NEED THIS SICK AND EXPENSIVE GOVERNMENT lording it over US!

          • Goethe Behr

            Surfisher: Pat your own head. I don’t want your condescending approval any more than your silly rants.

    • Surfisher

      Ron Paul on Neil Cavuto — superbly stated!

      Make this 5 minute video viral!!!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anibsM9NWvE#t=117

  • Surfisher

    Nate: this video won’t play — what a ‘surprise’ since it is exposes Jewish Harry Reid and YouTube is owned by a Jewish Russian…SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS…LOL.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0lFyFJeZSY

    Harry Reid: ‘Why Would We Want To’ Help One Kid With Cancer?
    ——————————————————————————————-

    Harry Reid was the one that STATED that as long as he is in Control of the US Senate, he’ll NEVER allow a Motion to be entertained to Audit the Federal Reserve — WHY NOT? Since anyone can be audited — why does Harry Reid want to make them exempt….what does he fear would be discovered?!

  • Surfisher

    Reality check:

    Does anyone with a functioning brain think that Obama’s goal from day one has been anything but the destruction of our Free Republic, by eliminating the US Constitution as the ONLY TRUE AND INDISPENSABLE framework on which our Nation MUST be based?!

    Barrack Hussein has done much damage to the Constitution already — his NAADA signature (which he lied that he’ll NEVER sign) into law allowing any US Citizen to be whisked away, without due process or representation, to some secret Military Base on MERE suspicion (not actual proof) of being a “terrorist”!

    Barrack Hussein also wanted armed drones to fly all over America (but Rand Paul’s heroic stand finally elicited a response from the White House — not Barrack Hussein directly– that such drones wont kill Americans on American soil)!

    Barrack Hussein has started more “treason trials” on whistle blowers than all other presidents combined in US history!

    Barrack Hussein has finalized the NSA Spying on All Americans at the Utah Center — that is up and running already, AND collecting all possible DATA on ALL Americans!

    Barrack Hussein and wife Michelle Obama have publicly stated that they have attended US Flag burnings, because: “We feel that the US Constitution was written in Colonial Times and no longer applies to today’s world, being an archaic document …therefore, we do not think the US Flag represents what America should be today”! Meaning they want the US Constitution abolished!

    These are just a few of the horrendous examples Obama has perpetrated against the American people — but they are very narrow, few will suffer from them today.
    ————————————————————————————————–

    Here is THE BIG ONE — Obama’s Coup d’état of our Republic!

    “Obamacare” affects EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN, our Entire Nation — and as SUCH is nothing else, but the ultimate illegal weapon that ENDS the US Constitution, and thereby our Nation as Free People!

    The US Constitution PROHIBITS the mandate of anyone (whether private or public entities) from FORCING their goods or services on the Free American People upon the threat of penalty! (Example: If Verizon tells you: “You must subscribe to our service, or be penalized”. If Verizon tries to force that upon you, any Court of Law would find them guilty of EXTORTION, and give them jail time)!

    Thus, why would Obama’s “Obamacare” be treated differently, and not as the illegal EXTORTION that it is?!
    ————————————————————————————————–

    What can you do to save our Nation — simple, get your reps to Save America by STARTING an IMPEACHMENT PROCESS of Obama NOW!

  • Tess Trueheart

    The above is just a few of the horrendous examples you, Surfisher, have perpetrated against the American people —

    • samreusser

      Dear Tess – Prove Surfisher wrong with facts!!!
      Unfortunately no care do!!!!

      • Tess Trueheart

        Dear Sam…The undeniable fact is that we live “in the land of the free and the home of the brave.” From the Constitution we are given the rights of religion and free speech. From our Creator we were given the ten commandants…remember #8 You shall not steal (this includes a person’s good name) #9 You shall not lie. From the Law of the Land (US) one has the right to protect their good name from libel and slander, particularly written. Which now means you can be sued for any defamatory statements you post online.

        You offered me quite challenge. So I offer you one…find and post one pure, undiluted fact (not thought or belief) in the above post of Surfisher. Happy hunting, Sam.

        • Josh

          Tess – you state: The undeniable fact is that we live “in the land of the free and the home of the brave.” From the Constitution we are given the rights of religion and free speech.

          One interesting fact is that…because of Obamacare, you no longer have the right to ‘not buy’ health insurance. In fact, you don’t even have the right to find a health insurance provider that provides according to your religious perferences…denying the ‘free exercise’ clause.

          The wide interpretation of the commerce clause by the judicial branch has enabled the Legislative and Executive branches to abuse the American people at will. Obamacare is just the latest…and worst since Eugenics…in crimes against humanity our government has perpetrated on the people. and like the nazi’s they made their crimes against humanity legal in the usa.

          • Tess Trueheart

            Josh..it appears you have not fully fully read and digested The Affordable Healthcare Act. There are exceptions as to who has to buy this insurance. Members of a “recognized religious sect or division,” as specified in Section 1402(g)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code, are also exempt. So, if you are Native American or Amish,for example, you do not have to enroll. This is the results of Supreme Court Justice Roberts ruling the penalty was a tax and not a fine. I would be very interested to know which insurance company provides coverage according to your religion.

            Eugenics would have been so much parlor talk had it not been for extensive financing by corporate philanthropies, specifically the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune. They were all in league with some of America’s most respected scientists hailing from such prestigious universities as Stanford, Yale, Harvard, and Princeton. In its infamous 1927 decision, Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind”. Eugenics in America was supported by the elitists. The program never received government funding. It is very difficult to accept that this group believed they were improving the gene pool, by forced sterilization, euthanasia, infanticide,and pre-emptive abortion. Strange, isn’t it, that all the above names are now spoke of respectfully

            Crimes against humanity: atrocity (as extermination or enslavement) that is directed especially against an entire population or part of a population on specious grounds and without regard to individual guilt or responsibility even on such grounds (merriam-webster). On what specific grounds does this apply to President Obama?

      • Tess Trueheart

        Sam…here is a copy of a post I made to Surfisher:
        You wrote: Barrack Hussein has started more “treason trials” on whistle blowers than all other presidents combined in US history!
        Truth: the United States has not officially charged an American with treason since the end of World War II until President George W Bush, in 2006, charged Adam Gadahn, an American-born convert to Islam who joined al Qaeda, became the first American to be indicted on federal charges of treason. (not a whistleblower) He remains in hiding overseas. Anwar Al-Awlaki, John Walker Lindh, Bradley Manning were not charged with treason. Julian Assange, Edward Snowden have not been charged with treason.

        You wrote:Barrack Hussein and wife Michelle Obama have publicly stated that they have attended US Flag burnings, because: “We feel that the US Constitution was written in Colonial Times and no longer applies to today’s world, being an archaic document …therefore, we do not think the US Flag represents what America should be today”! Meaning they want the US Constitution abolished!
        Truth: The beginning of this fabrication came from John Semmens, a columnist, who wrote a satirical “Semi-News ” column for The Arizona Conservative. It can be found on the their website. Later,John Semmens said it was a mock explanation meant in zest. Supposedly, it was presented on Meet The Press by retired General Bill Ginn as fact. Dale Lindsborg printed it in the Washington Post. Dale Lindsberg said he found the material on the internet, not from any interviews or visual knowledge.

        You wrote: Barrack Hussein has finalized the NSA Spying on All Americans at the Utah Center — that is up and running already, AND collecting all possible DATA on ALL Americans!
        Truth: The National Surveillance Agency (NSA) has always monitored our communications but mostly had to do with foreign communications. This was largely expanded to cover all communications after the 9-11-2001 attacks.
        President George W. Bush and a conservative controlled Senate and House in our Congress passed the Patriot Act in October 2001 for 10 years. President Barack Obama and a liberal Senate & conservative House signed a 4 year extension in 2011. In other words, Congress has to first agree and pass these bills for spying on Americans before it even reached either President’s desk. President Obama didnot wave a wand and create the Utah Center…he had accomplishes from both sides of the aisles.

        You wrote: Barrack Hussein also wanted armed drones to fly all over America (but Rand Paul’s heroic stand finally elicited a response from the White House — not Barrack Hussein directly– that such drones wont kill Americans on American soil)
        Truth: Spying, or killing, by the use of aircraft is not new. In the 1950’s,under President Eisenhower, Aquatone; a plan for the CIA to develop and deploy a long-range spy plane capable of flying beyond the reach of Soviet interceptors and surface to air defenses. This became the U-2 with the ability to sustain 2.5gs with a maximum speed of Mach 0.8 or 460 knots at a service altitude of 70,600 feet carrying a payload of 450 lbs. When did America know of this spying detail? On May 1,1960 when the Russians shot one down. In the second Gulf war drones really came into their own by sending live pictures back to the command post. Unfortunately, drones are here to stay unless our Congress decides to protect us with a law. There are 327 certificates of operation for drones active in the United States. Arlington,Texas police department, same for Houston,Texas, and Miami, Florida.

        More later

        • Surfisher

          Tess Liehard — your circumlocution cannot overcome obvious to all FACTS.

          Barrack Hussein states one thing, then does the exact opposite!

          There is no defense for this, Tess Liehard — your boss is a liar and a perjurer (if this comes to a court of law)!

          From his own mouth (watch how aggressive he is when asserting that he’ll protect American liberties if elected, and after he’s done the opposite how pathetic and stumbling and bumbling Obama is in his “rationalization” of doing the exact opposite of what he had committed to do)!

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BmdovYztH8

          Make this 2 minute video viral.

          • Tess Trueheart

            Surfisher:
            You wrote: Tess Liehard — your circumlocution cannot overcome obvious to all FACTS.
            Truth: Circumlocution is a 15th century word but I will try to oblige you and use fewer words in a sentence.

            You wrote: Barrack Hussein states one thing, then does the exact opposite!
            Truth: Bumbling. Specify the one thing. Specify the exact opposite.

            You wrote: There is no defense for this, Tess Liehard — your boss is a liar and a perjurer (if this comes to a court of law)!
            Truth: You are a liar. To indicate that Barack Obama is my boss is a lie that you repeat and repeat. You degrade my name which only a degenerate would do.

            You wrote: From his own mouth (watch how aggressive he is when asserting that he’ll protect American liberties if elected, and after he’s done the opposite how pathetic and stumbling and bumbling Obama is in his “rationalization” of doing the exact opposite of what he had committed to do)
            Truth: I watched the Utube twice. The tape is spliced so it has no validity. The tape has in it only what the splicer wanted one to view. Your review of the tape needs more than facial descriptions.

            • Goethe Behr

              Tess: Nearly everyone on here will read what someone else says and think about it. Surfisher won’t, so I’m afraid you’re wasting your time trying to reason with him.

              Let’s fantasize for a moment. I’ll write the response we all want to see–

              Surfisher says–
              Tess, I owe you an apology. I know it’s insane to suggest that you are paid to give your views. This thread is only going to ten people in the world, so the idea that someone would be paid to post is ridiculous. I just want to believe that lots of people are hanging on my every word. I also acknowledge that you put a lot of time in your post, and your response is certainly reasonable, even if some of us will disagree with you. I know I sound like a paranoid, delusional, mean old man all the time. Maybe people on here who have said I should seek professional help are right. I’ll try to be more respectful in the future.
              Sincerely,
              Surfisher

  • Goethe Behr

    I found this:

    WASHINGTON – A bill the House passed to guarantee that furloughed federal workers receive back pay after the partial government shutdown is resolved seems to have hit a snag in the Senate.

    The second-ranking Senate Republican, John Cornyn of Texas, said Monday that “it’s premature to do it right now.”

    “I hope that since we’re going to pay these people anyway that they would allow them to come back to work right now,” said Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa. “Because it doesn’t make sense to say you’re going to pay and then leave people home when they could be doing their work and want to do their work.”

    [Unless a worker is deemed essential under agency guidelines, it is illegal for them to work or receive pay during a lapse in federal funding.]

    Read more: http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/23631416/back-pay-for-furloughed-workers-slows-in-senate#ixzz2h9KX8c8D
    Follow us: @myfoxdc on Twitter | myfoxdc on Facebook

    ================================

    There are a number of things we should be able to agree on. One is the meaning of “clean bill.” Another is the question of paying people for NOT working. What is the sense of even having a “shutdown” if the only effect is lack of services while paying MORE than normal (because of the costs of signs and other work required to have a shutdown).

  • Goethe Behr

    Tess: Since you brought up WIC, I decided to look to see how the “farm bill” went, which split food stamps from the corporate farming welfare program. I found this:

    (Reuters) October 1, 2013- Overshadowed by the government shutdown, the U.S. farm subsidy law expired for the second time on Tuesday with lawmakers still deadlocked over how to confront cuts in food assistance programs for low-income Americans. . .

    With expiration, the Agriculture Department lost authority to run agricultural export, global food aid, livestock disaster relief and some conservation programs. Crop subsidies, crop insurance and food stamps, the big-ticket programs, are permanently authorized and remain in business.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/01/us-usa-agriculture-farm-bill-idUSBRE9901DE20131001

  • Tess Trueheart

    Goethe…At first read, that crop subsidies, crop insurance, and food stamps, the big ticket programs (not sure what these are) are permanently authorized does have a comforting ring. However, crop subsidies are out of control. Congressman Stephen Fincher, (R-Tn), is championing the fight to reduce the government’s food stamp program. As the second largest recipient of farm subsidies in the United States Congress, he has collected — $3.48 million from the American taxpayers in the 13 years from 1999 to 2012. There are so-called farmers in this country who every year receive more than $1 million in subsidies from the government. You can bet they are not the farmers sweating every day on a tractor. Congressman Fincher is pushing hard to cut more than $20 billion from the food stamp program while also pushing to expand crop insurance subsidies by $9 billion. He is not the only greedy politician to yank subsistence from the mouths of the hungry while fattening themselves.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Vladimir Lenin: “Socialized Medicine is the Keystone to the Arch of the Socialist State.”

    Republicans keep holding the line! It is time for the American people to be heard!

    We don’t want Obamacare and its 10,535 pages of mandates and its exhorbitant costs!!!!

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: I am always suspicious when people come up with convenient quotes by Commies or Nazis or Jesus, himself, to rationalize some position. So I went hunting. The supposed Lenin quote is RE-quoted all over the place, but nobody says where they saw it. Obviously, someone just made it up, and they all reposted it, because it fit their story.

      And it doesn’t make sense, anyway.

      The reason is that Tsarist Russia actually did have a form of socialized medicine. According to the reform of 1864, individual zemstvo (???????), that collected local taxes, also got responsibilities for establishing subsidized service at least for catastrophic events. It wasn’t completely free and was paid for by a combination of local taxes and direct fees; however, it was public and non-for-profit, existing in parallel with mostly urban for-profit system. A good detailed article in Russian can be found here: http://www.wikiznanie.ru/ru-wz/index…??

      • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

        Goethe, from my research I can provide a citing of the above Vladimir Lenin quote. It came from the America Medical Association’s opposition to the Wagner-Murray Dingell bill of 1948. Pamphlets were created stated “Would socialize medicine lead to socilization of other phases of life? Lenin though so. He declared socialized medicine is the keystone to the arch of the socialist state.”

        The AMA also disseminated a petition to be signed by citizens and delivered to congress which stated: “The medical profession and sick whom they treat will be directly under political control….and doctors in America will become clock watchers and slaves of a system. Now fewer those who believe in American democracy must make their belief known to their representatives so that the attempt to enslave medicine as first across the professions, industries, or trades to be socialized will meet the ignominious defeat it deserves.”

        Needless to say the bill was defeated. The point of this citing is show its origin and to convey another known fact. People of that time period routinely got their information from the radio! Perhaps they heard someone quote Lenin. It had to be factual, or their opponents would have called them out on it.

        One of the reasons why the “traditionialists” (people born between 1922-1945) are good listeners is because they grew up listening to the radio. The “Multi generations in the workplace” model supports this assertion. My institution uses this model when giving information to patients, based on their age.

        • Goethe Behr

          Daisy: A lie is a lie, regardless of who tells it. And when that lie comes from someone who is rabidly opposed to something, you should be doubly suspicious.

          If even the Library of Congress can’t substantiate a quote, it never happened. And using fake quotes detracts from an argument, wouldn’t you say?

          “Would socialized medicine lead to socialization of other phases of American life?” demanded one pamphlet. It answered, “Lenin thought so. He declared: ‘Socialized medicine is the keystone to the arch of the Socialist State.'” (The Library of Congress was not able to locate this quotation in Lenin’s writings.)

          http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3468301638.html

  • Goethe Behr

    BREAKING NEWS Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:36 AM EDT

    House Republicans Discuss Plan for Short-Term Increase in Debt Ceiling

    House Republicans gathered Thursday morning to discuss a plan to lift the government’s statutory borrowing limit temporarily to allow for negotiations on a package of deficit reduction and tax reform proposals that could lead to a reopening of the government and an end to the threat of government default.

    House Republican leaders jumped on the plan, presented on Wednesday by Representative Paul D. Ryan of Wisconsin, chairman of the House Budget Committee. Meantime, a group of Republican senators has begun meeting with Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, to find a bipartisan solution to the twin fiscal impasses.

    The senators are examining a year-long resolution funding the government at levels that reflect automatic spending cuts known as sequestration, but with added flexibility to help government agencies and departments deal with the tight budgets. The debt ceiling would also be raised.

    • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

      Sequestration only helps a little. It is like jumping over dollars to pick up dimes! The American people want a plan to bring
      back our financial solvency!

  • Tess Trueheart

    I agree that the Sequestration process was of little help. It was a little bit like inflicting a self-wound or ingesting a poison pill. The super committee (Committee on Deficit Reduction) was given a directive to provide legislation, by November 23, 2011, to reduce spending by $1.5 trillion over 10 years. The committee failed to offer even one proposal, meaning Congress failed to pass $1.2 trillion in cuts by the end of 2012, Sequestration cuts started on January 2, 2013. These cuts were primarily to Education, eliminating jobs for 30,000 teachers and staff, after school and like programs by nearly 1.2 million, and eliminating meals and homebound services for seniors by over 4 million, and there are more.

    The federal budget deficit will drop to $845 billion this year after topping $1 trillion for four straight years, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projects. Even if Congress does nothing further to cut spending or raise tax revenues, deficits will continue to shrink — to $430 billion by fiscal 2015,

    If you make under $300,000 a year this should be of high concern to you. The recent improvements on corporate and government ledgers haven’t been shared by millions of working-class Americans. There seems to be a separate side-by-side economy for each of these three classes..

    The debt limit is the total amount of money that the United States government pays in salaries, interest on the national debt, tax refunds, and other payments. All obligations that Congresses and presidents of both parties have made in the past.many years. Sounds good to blame Bush. Sounds good to blame Obama. How about the maximum pay boost lawmakers are giving themselves in 2013? 1.1 percent, or about $1,900 for most. Has even one of our millionaire congressmen offered to work without pay for the good of the country? All the years of wasteful earmarks are in there.

    The U.S. government has never been completely debt-free with the except of that one time we sold land seized from the Native Americans..

    • Goethe Behr

      I just checked the chart of the national debt. There were a number of spikes–and they were all related to wars–Revolutionary, Civil, WW1, WW2, Cold War, Afgan/Iraq.

      Maybe if we can keep out of wars for a couple decades, maybe we can get on our feet.

  • Tess Trueheart

    Billy Malone, are you reading? We really need one of your 2 line zingers. We need to smile.

    • Goethe Behr

      Tess: Yeah, aside from the fact that all this is right down his alley. What does he think of paying people not to work?

      Maybe Billy has been furloughed. . .

  • Surfisher

    Geothe & Tess — the Punch and Judy show….

    • Goethe Behr

      Surf: You’re such a cartoon.

  • Josh

    Tess – you don’t realize it, but your own statements reveal the answer to your question.

    Your statement: “There are exceptions as to *who has to buy* this insurance.” Obama was very clear in his address to the nation on his healthcare bill that forcing all American’s to buy health insurance must be done, in order to cover the full cost of health care. His reasoning was that uninsured people were not paying their medical bills forcing health care costs of others to be higher. His solution was to force people to buy health insurance. You note exceptions, but still admit there are people who ‘have to’ buy insurance because of the mandate. This means forcing people to do something others benefit from…that’s slavery.

    Here is the description you gave of crimes against humanity: Crimes against humanity: atrocity (as extermination or *enslavement*) that is directed especially against an entire population or part of a population on specious grounds and without regard to individual guilt or responsibility even on such grounds (merriam-webster).

    Obamacare is directed at the entire population of America (there are few exceptions) forcing us all to buy health insurance. This is without regard to our individual guilt or responsibility in causing the high health care cost, or lack of coverage for some, the act is intending to fix. In short, it is not *America’s* fault that less than 10% of the population doesn’t buy health insurance. It is also not *America’s* fault that people game the system. However, Obamacare is directed at all of America in order to fix this.

    So by your own definition of crimes against humanity, your admission that people ‘have to’ buy, and Obama’s stated reasons for Obamacare, it is clearly a crime against the population of America by forcing us to buy health insurance against our will for the state reasons.

    And like the Nazi’s de-humanized the Jews in order to legalize the Holocaust, our government has legalized this atrocity. It is a crime against humanity for a government to force its citizens to buy health insurance.

  • Tess Trueheart

    Josh…The Affordable Care Act is a law upheld by The Supreme Court of the United States. Therefore it is not a crime. Massachusetts has RomnyCare (on which Affordable Healthcare is modeled) and has been extremely successful with 98% of their population covered. To repeal a law members of Congress must sponsor an entirely new bill. The new bill, through its wording, will either repeal an existing law upon passage or amend an existing bill. If the bill is passed in the House of Representative, if the Senate passes the bill, It then goes to the president for signature or veto. You cannot legally defund any law without the above process. After forty five repeal attempts the House should know this. You said “forcing people to do something others benefit from…that’s slavery”. Well, if you drive a car your state law says must have a driver’s license– state Treasury benefits …state law says you must have insurance–insurance company benefits…want to go fishing or hunting–must have a license and county or state Treasury benefits–The Capitol Building, Supreme Court Building and the White House was built by actual slaves…the beneficiary is all Americans. If you still think it is a crime, call the FBI.

    The Holocaust was an atrocity. The German government had no law on the books that prohibited the act or condoned it. The mind cannot stretch to find a comparison between a Healthcare law and the murder and gas chamber deaths of the Jewish population of Germany.

    • Josh

      slavery was legal too. as was the Germany’s treatment of the Jews. as was forbidding women to vote. as was segregation. need I go on?

      Auto insurance is different because we are required to buy insurance to pay for damage we cause to someone else. we are not required by law to get auto insurance to pay for damages to ourselves. its called liability.

      for the licenses, you don’t have to fish.

      with obamacare it is a mandate, there is no “if you do this you must do that” with it. it says…if you are alive you must be covered buy insurance.
      the “its legal” defense doesn’t mean its not a crime against humanity.

      to force someone against their will to buy health insurance for themselves is wrong.

      that’s why 77% of americans are against the mandate and never have wanted it.

      that’s what makes it a crime against humanity

      • Goethe Behr

        Josh: Just for the sake of argument. . .

        You say that it’s ok to require car insurance to cover damage we do to others. But when people go to the emergency room with a nail through the back of their skull, if that person doesn’t have health insurance they ARE doing damage to the rest of us, who must pay for their treatment.

        So either you’re saying that insurance should be required to protect us against having to pay those damages, or else you’re saying hospitals should kick the guy with the nail in his head to the curb, right?

        • Josh

          I’m saying the difference is choice. with auto insurance, hunting licenses, fishing licenses….etc you aren’t required to have them simply for the fact that you exist. it is, if you are going to drive then you need to be able to pay for the damage you might do to others. but you can choose not to drive. you can’t choose not to buy health insurance anymore, not at all.

          if the uninsured goes to the eroom, they only might do damage to some, but not the entire nation. first of all, they can arrange form payment like my parents did when they were uninsured. 2nd there are charities. 3rd the hospital can write it off. yes, they also raise prices to cover, but the first 3 things absorb a lot of the cost.

          people who are uninsured aren’t all dead beats. sure there are some who game the system, but they ar a very small portion.

          I’m saying we already have a process in place that works better than forcing all Americans to buy health insurance against their will. It’s not a perfect system, but its better than tyranny.

          its ridiculous anyway. because most of the uninsured are uninsured because they can’t afford it. well this bill doesn’t make the poor buy insurance, its subsidises them. where do they get that money to subsidize? from the same people who are currently paying higher insurance rates (theoretically). so, really its obamcare that causes us all to pay for the uninsured, not the pre-obamacare days. in the pre-obamcare days at least you could choose to go cash and get out of the system but no more. now we are forced to pay for insurance and our tax burden has increased because our tax dollars are now going to insurance subsidies obamacare provides….its just a bad deal all around.

          not only is it a tyrannical crime against humanity, it doesn’t even solve the problem it set out to solve.

      • Tess Trueheart

        Josh…any way you cut it…a law is a law…is a law…

        • Josh

          you’re missing the point that being legal is irrelevant. crimes against humanity are often deemed legal by the government committing the atrocities, just like our government made this atrocity legal.

          • Surfisher

            Josh — spot on!

            Nice try, trying to educate the Geothe’s & Tess’ of the world. It’s to no avail, these are the marching morons that have their blinders on for life (it is so much easier and so very comforting for them to live in their blissful ignorance, than to allow the turmoil of seeing the inescapable truth — so they’ll keep on spouting anything to “make it go away”).

            I’ve always said that one can do just about anything, but put brains into a fool’s head.

            Or, you can lead a horse to water — but can’t make him drink….

            • Goethe Behr

              Surf: Typical pompous attack, adding absolutely nothing to the discussion. Lots of heat and no light.

          • Goethe Behr

            Josh: The trouble with being hyper-partisan is that you alienate non-partisans. Bush had no logical reason to win in 2004, except that some Democrats ran around, frothing at the mouth, calling him “Hitler” and more. Likewise, Obama could have been beated in 2012, except that some Republicans ran around, frothing at the mouth, calling him “Hilter” and more.

            The fact that the far right considers the AHA Communism, with a “government takeover,” and the far leg considers the AHA Fascism, “handing over our lives to corporations” means that it’s probably not all bad. So when people say the sky will fall and the world will end because of this one law, they make their arguments sound ridiculous. And lose.

            • Josh

              Goethe – i notice that you don’t reference anything i’ve written. I think you’re projecting other people’s statements onto me. You also haven’t mentioned anything as being ‘untrue.’

              I haven’t called Obamacare Communism. However, I did have an interesting realization today….the problems they’ve faced with the release of Obamacare makes me think of the bread and toilet paper lines in USSR. from an ‘online’ perspective, its the same exact thing. the problems they’re facing with too many people flooding the system is exactly the problem the USSR faced with trying to distribute food.

              We have people standing in ‘online’ lines waiting to get healthcare in the exact same way that people stood in line for things in the USSR.

              You are still completely avoiding the point that the mandate forces people to buy health insurance.

              You say you won’t be effected by this. But remember the statement you have posted before, you should practice what you preach:

              First they came for the communists,
              and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

              Then they came for the socialists,
              and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a socialist.

              Then they came for the trade unionists,
              and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

              Then they came for me,
              and there was no one left to speak for me.
              – Pastor Martin Niemöller

            • Goethe Behr

              Josh: I am not defending Obamacare. I am just ridiculing the neurotic hysteria about it. And I was just pointing out the typical hysteria of the left and right–using “Nazi” and “Communist” in their extremist insanity. You happened to use “socialism.” Same thing.

              They could have gone with government-run health-care, or “single payer.” They could have at least provided public options. Nope. They handed the whole system over to the private sector (insurance companies), instead. I’m not defending it. I’m just saying all this “socialism” talk is nonsense.

              But since you asked, the logic of the individual mandate is to fund the system and to prevent the uninsured from “gaming the system.” By that, I mean, young people think they’re invincible, so they don’t want to buy insurance. But if they contract a serious disease or have a catastrophic accident, who pays? You do. Socialism.

              You already said you have no problem with requiring auto insurance. Why not oppose that, too? At least you’d be consistent.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Goethe, hospitals do TREAT patients regardless of their ABILITY to pay. Now, they will turn the bill over to collections, but as the old
    saying goes “You can’t get blood from a turnip.” MOST people who have substantial assets (home; late model cars; savings accounts; retirement accounts) also have insurance. Why? To protect their assets.

    Obama made promises comprised of “lies and confusion”. Some workers’ insurance premiums have gone up while others haven’t, since the employer mandates hasn’t yet kicked in.

    The REASON that our insurance system is so mucked up is because of the Government! Once Medicaid/Medicare became widespread, the guvnment told the hospitals and providers that they would only pay 55-60% of the actual costs! Who made up the difference? Insurance companies and patients who are self pay. The “work-around” was “fee for service” and “splintered billing”. Charge for every minute thing that you possibly can to extract as much money as you can. A complete blood count use to be a hundred dollars, now it is a couple thousand. One of the specialist that I work with routinely has to order $10,000 worth of lab work to help make a cancer diagnosis. It is heart breaking to see patients (especially the elderly) say that their VA won’t pay for it or we find out that their Medicare supplement doesn’t cover it.

    If the owners of the Rosen Hotels in Florida can create a self-pay system for their employees that only cost ALL the workers $59 a month in premiums, then why can’t the government? Answer: They needed another pot of money to steal from!

    Lastly, while socialized health care might seem to work in Europe, there is one big difference from there to here. Their citizens can forgo having an automobile to transport them. This in essence frees up money for them to pay their exhorbitant taxes. Unless you live in a big metropolitan city in the US, most americans need an automobile.

    Obamacare is designed to herd people back into the cities; make it cost prohibitive to own a car; and gain control of 1/6th of our economy!!!

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: Yeah. What we have now is socialism–poor people get treatment, and not only do we pay for it, but we pay in the most expensive possible way–emergency room.

      People are acting as if a law can never be changed. Doesn’t matter if you like it or not, the fact is that the ACA is already in effect. Instead of wasting all this time on photo ops and personal ego, Congress should be focusing on where to go from here.

      • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

        I agree that the Republicans have used this opportunity (the debt ceiling and the roll-out of Obmacare) to get their points/concerns heard.
        While it is extreme, it has gotten the public’s attention! People are now beginning to learn what Obmacare is really about and how it will impact their lives in a negative way. People usually don’t “get it” until it starts costing them something…… Most just stretch and yawn and go about their day and trust the government like blind sheep.

        • Goethe Behr

          Daisy: The trouble with only listening to the media who say what you want to hear is that you don’t see what’s really going on.

          You can’t be much more conservative that FORBES Magazine, yet they have a story with this headline:

          Boomerang! Poll Reveals GOP’s Government Shutdown Bolstered Obamacare’s Popularity By 20%

          http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/10/11/boomerang-poll-reveals-gops-government-shutdown-bolstered-obamacare-popularity-by-20/

          • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

            I am not surprised by boomerang’s latest poll. We haven’t had a government shutdown since 1996 so people have forgotten in 17 years that the process is legal and necessary to keep the power in balance. The media likes to make the news, not report it. and the more dire they can spin it, the more people tune in.

            Since Obamacare is a “budgetary item”, it needs bi-partisan approval to fund it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the shutdown goes another 5-7 days if the Democrats refuse to budge.

            • Goethe Behr

              Daisy: But haven’t you noticed? Over the past several days, NOBODY is talking about Obamacare in reference to the ceiling or shutdown. They’re talking, vaguely, about renegotiating the budget that was already negotiated, but I think the Obamacare repeal ultimatum is suddenly dead.

          • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

            Even if Lenin didn’t say it, it still is a true statement! That is why is resonated with the American people during Truman’s time and still does today! Emotion is more powerful then logic! You win an argument, but loose the person over bruised pride and intellect. The book “Compelling people” supports this. When you fight with someone (especially when you are out to win) you loose the power of persuasion!

            • Goethe Behr

              Daisy: No, it’s total nonsense. Health-care is only one industry among many.

              And, yes, it does matter when you base your argument on a lie.

              The first thing that tipped me off was that it used the expression “health-care.” When the AMA made up the quote, they should have phrased it differently.

              Lenin died in 1924, and I don’t believe the expression “health-care” is that old. They talked about medicine, curing disease, and even caring for people–but I do not believe that the CONCEPT of “caring for health” is that old.
              You have to remember that at the beginning of the 20th century, medical “science” was not far removed from ancient practices.

              I have been searching for the first appearance of the term “health-care,” but have not been able to find it. [Can anyone find a use of the term before the 1940s?]

              Regardless, the idea that Lenin would have
              considered the quacks that practiced at that time at all important is silly–and to have the rudimentary medicine that was available at that time to be considered a “system” is ludicrous.

              And even today, to think that a system which is really controlled by profit-making insurance companies is somehow “socialist” is ridiculous. I’m not saying it’s a good system, I’m just saying there are LEGITIMATE reasons to criticize it, and to use silly arguments just turns people off.

          • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

            BTW Goethe, the emergency room is clogged up by gang related violence (people who qualify for medicaid); trauma (really has increased since texting became vogue); and people using the ER in place of a family physician. Most private practices don’t want to take medicaid patients because the reimbursement is lousy; the paperwork is cumbersome; and the population is difficult (non-compliant and prone to drama). If a guvnment funded payer system is so wonderful, then why did the democrats EXEMPT themselves from the same program that they are forcing the rest of us on? Answer: They know that they too will receive substandard care!

            • Goethe Behr

              Daisy: Yeah, sick and injured people. Why do they insist on being fixed?? Regardless of who else is there, the fact that uninsured people go there to FURTHER clog the system–paid for by us–is socialized medicine, and it’s what we have now.

              And again, the idea that CONGRESS (not “Democrats”) exempted themselves is another lie. The lie comes from the fact that they had a subsidy as part of their pay, and that subsidy is just continuing.

              It’s like saying if your employer paid part of your health insurance last year, they should NOT be allowed to contribute toward it next year. What sense does that make??

              To continue an existing subsidy is not at all the same as saying they “exempted themselves.” Just silliness.

          • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

            Maybe NOBODY is talking about Obamacare because Paul Ryan’s plan is on the table. After all, they will have six weeks to fine tune the details. Personally, I wouldn’t take that gamble, because the leverage gets lost. What is left to hold their feet to the fire???

            • Goethe Behr

              Daisy: You’re right. The American public is easily bored. As the Forbes article pointed out, they are sick of hearing about “defunding Obamacare.” You know what they’re going to like a whole lot LESS? If after there appears to be some kind of solution to the fiscal crises somebody tries to bring up “defunding Obamacare” again.

              Now that the focus in on reopening services and avoiding another downgrade of our international credit rating. Obamacare is yesterdays news.

    • Surfisher

      Daisy — Nice try, trying to educate the Geothe’s & Tess’ of the world. It’s to no avail, these are the marching morons that have their blinders on for life (it is so much easier and so very comforting for them to live in their blissful ignorance, than to allow the turmoil of seeing the inescapable truth — so they’ll keep on spouting anything to “make it go away”).

      I’ve always said that one can do just about anything, but put brains into a fool’s head.

      Or, you can lead a horse to water — but can’t make him drink….

      P.S. — Daisy, keep on posting here!

  • Tess Trueheart

    Daisy… you may be right about emotions…the first thing that entered my mind this morning was Don Meredith singing “the party’s over”. Regardless of sides, this was an excursion into a box canyon. The victim will be the economy.

  • Goethe Behr

    By the way, conservative commentator David Brooks says the really sad thing for opponents of Obamacare is that the debt crisis has totally distracted people from the problems that the Obamacare launch has had. He says if we didn’t have the debt crisis, all the talk would be about how much trouble Obamacare is having–and it would probably have been delayed already.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Goethe, it all depends on where you get your news. MSNBC is where most baby boomers, generation x-er’s and millenials get theirs. Traditionalists and conservatives tune into FOX TV and according to “polls” Fox has the most viewership.

    Being an Independent, the biggest thing that troubles me is this: Why is Washington D.C. the richest city in America? Answer: Mis-appropriation of government (taxpayer’s money). Congress has gotten rich off the backs of the American people and play the “blame game” so proficiently that we all loose. Maybe it is time to sweep the house! Try a different approach! If cursive writing is a thing of the past then maybe enacting “term limits” should be a DEMAND that we all try to change!

    BTW Tess, thank you for supporting my “emotional” argument.

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: I don’t have a TV. I see shows if I’m at a store or office that has one.

      I had heard that Fox’s average viewer is 65–but that’s only because the ratings companies’ highest category is “65 and older.”

      I didn’t think anyone watched MSNBC. I tried to look up their demographics, but Gallup didn’t analyze it.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Goethe, while we have parts of socialized medicine (VA/Medicare/Medicaid) in existence, we don’t have the government tracking our health care premiums to see if we are current or “signed up.” Obamacare will track us from cradle to grave to see where we are. Married couples will get dinged the most. Should one spouse loose their job/have no job, they will still be evaluated by their joint income (regardless how they file their taxes). Only those who are at poverty level, will benefit from the subsidies. I know of one family where the wife has MS and can’t work. She went onto her State’s exchange to find out what her premiums will be. Now they are $20,000 a year with a 50% deductable. Her self-employed husband makes $60,000 a year and is now expected to fork over 1/3 of their income for health care! Their old plan (before their existing company dropped them) only charged $10,000 a year with a 20% deductable for the first $100,000. Their health care expenses has doubled! How is Obamacare helping them?

  • Tess Trueheart

    The Affordable Healthcare plan is complex but it does have character. It will help the 43.6 million Americans living in poverty be able to go to a doctor’s office for treatment. It means millions of dollars will stay in federal, state, and county coffers because this group will no longer be lined up in emergency rooms, running up hospital charges they are unable to pay. There are families above the poverty line that still cannot afford high insurance rates. All will be given tax credits (not cash) to met their insurance payments. I believe there are many flaws in this bill that will need to be improved upon but time and cooperation could do that. One benefit from this act already enjoyed by the entire country: children can remain on their parents insurance policy until they reach 26 years of age. One cannot be refused insurance because of a pre-existing condition and cannot be dropped by their insurance company if they are costing the insurance company too much money or if they contact cancer or serious heart disease, etc.

    • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

      Tess, Do you know if the children (age 19-26) of the insured have to be attending college and/or living at home?

      The biggest flaw that I see in Obamacare is this: They will still be using insurance companies to pay the claims. Insurance is based on risk, last year’s payouts and many other factors that actuaries come up with. In order to cover these new risks, everyone (insured by that particular exchange/company) will be charged more to absorb all the newcomers and their pre-exisiting conditions.

      The one statistic that most are overlooking is this: The un-insured (most are young people and independent contractors) comprise of only 13% of the population! Why should the rest of us chip in and help cover them? Insurance started out as a “benefit” not a “right”.

      As a taxpayer, I am tired of paying for other’s freight that they think they are “entitled” to! Hot meals for their children during the school season and now during the summer, (Ohio has seen a spike in free lunches and the percentage of school kids receiving free lunch is 50%).

      We pay for their secondary education/training; their cell phones; their day care and housing. Since they (the mothers’ especially) are receiving so many handouts (nevermind all the Churches that provide free stuff ~ school supplies; health clinics; oil changes; diapers/clothes/housing; etc..) they frequently have money for luxuries. Eating out; getting their hair & nails done; entertainment; and trendy clothes. African American’s have a 70% out-of-wedlock rate; hispanics 50%; and whites 30%. Collectively, it is now 50!%!!!

      I’ve worked at a Children’s Hospital and I know for a fact that over half the patients already get medicaid or BCMH (bureau for Children with medical handicaps) subsidies. The ones at poverty rate also qualify for social security disability if they have a life-threatening or chronic disease. They are allowed to tap into benefits that they have never contributed one dime towards.

      Excuse me if I sound jaded, but ALOT of our social problems are caused by individual choices! The kids already have a safety net, so I feel that adults should fend for themselves! The one change that I would like made is for adults who have paid their 40 quarters (10 years into SSI) should be able to collect early (without financially qualifying) to offset expenses if their disease/diasability is life-threatening or prevents them from working.

      • Goethe Behr

        Daisy: That’s a legitimate argument. I agree that there is a lack of responsibility among our population, but it’s not just among the poor.

        But if you have hospital experience, you probably also noticed that while some people go to the emergency room for a hangnail, others will wait until they are desperately ill or injured.

        So the reasoning is not just that we have been wasting a lot of money with our socialistic system of having everyone pay for the uninsured–but also, the lack of preventive health-care has cost us and the patient unnecessary pain and expense.

        I’m not saying Obamacare is the answer. I’m just saying that there should be some way–and a less expensive way–to catch health problems before they become so critical.

      • Tess Trueheart

        Daisy…I believe the purpose behind young people being allowed to stay on their family’s insurance plan until age 26 was because higher education has become such a financial burden for many parents. As a nurse, I am sure you have observed that many working young people are uninsured. True, some are negligent because they didn’t think they were going to need a hospital and others simply did not have the money for insurance. Lump these two groups together and their huge costs of hospitalization (and ER) will normally be picked up by you, the taxpayer. Under the Affordable Care Act a patient could seek help in a doctor’s office in the early stages of an illness, preventing exorbitant emergency room costs and excessive hospital bills.

        I agree there are many options in Affordable Healthcare that need to be reviewed and changed. Romneycare, on which Obamacare is modeled, took Massachusett over two years to become successful. Now 98% of it’s citizens are insured and health costs are very low.

        You are right that many people abuse government programs But the blames lies with more than just the poor munchers. Take the Verizon Corporation who made over 12 billion dollars in net profits and paid 0 dollars in income tax. That is one big muncher. General Electric $10.5 billion in profit–0 dollars income tax. There are twenty or more large corporations that also share the 0 dollar income tax bracket. Your income tax not only pays for the poor but you help carry the tax burden for the rich.

        One thing I think we share in common, Daisy, is the welfare of the children. They are blameless.

        Tess

  • Surfisher

    Daisy — keep ‘em coming! Great job you and Josh are doing!

    If there was any doubt that the “Tess “Trueheart” character” (male or female…since one can be anything on the internet) is anything but an Obama shill, it is quickly disappearing.

    The “Tess character” is spending an INORDINATE amount of time to Google and spew forth in volumes the vile propaganda that is Obama’s pernicious anti-American agenda.

    The “Tess character” claimed was very involved with some Women’s Group in Texas — if true, that would leave little time for the “Tess character” to keep on posting and posting, post after lengthy post, NON-STOP every single day here!

    Conclusion: The “Tess character” has exposed itself as nothing more than a pernicious Obama shill.

    • Goethe Behr

      Surf: Another ridiculous character assassination, which adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. All heat and no light.

  • Surfisher

    With Obama’s DISAPPROVAL rating climbing through the roof — now is the perfect storm to go after all of Barrack Hussein’s perfidies full throttle!

    Let’s get this anti-American Usurper of our White House impeached, and hopefully send to jail for a long, long time.

    This will be a good start:

    Contact Texas congressman Steve Stockman and urge him to start an immediate investigation of Barrack Hussein’s failure to provide naught but a forged Birth Certificate online!

    Texas congressman Steve Stockman:

    326 Cannon House Office Building
    Independence Avenue
    Washington, DC 20515
    Phone: 202-225-1555
    Fax: 202-226-0396
    Hours: M-F 9-5:30pm

    420 Green Avenue
    Orange, TX 77630
    Phone: 409-883-8075
    Fax: 409-886-9918
    Hours: M-F 8-4:00pm

    web page:

    http://stockman.house.gov/contact
    ———————————————————————————-

    Make this short video VIRAL!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px9XtjUAIzs

    • Goethe Behr

      Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam. . .

      Surf: Didn’t Nate already warn you about this sort of thing?

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Goethe, people hardly go to the ER for a hangnail because they wouldn’t want to wait 6-8 hours being triaged. The ER always attends to the urgent first and then gets to the other cases in order of their severity and medical attention required. Not only does the ER get clogged up by patients who don’t have a family doctor, but it gets clogged up by the mentally ill who are drastically under-served. (That subject is so dire, but better left to discuss at another time).

    My institution and many other hospitals are implementing bio-medical screeings for their employees. If we go through the process of having lab work done (to measure our cholesterol leves; glucose levels; and triglycerides); our weight & height taken; BMI calculated and our waist measured, then we can qualify for an insurance discount, which is quite substantial. The purpose of obtaining this medical information is to access which employees are at risk for cardiac events; cancer events; and diabetes. Health coaches are assigned to the ones who need to improve their numbers or need an intervention, such as smoking cessation.

    Personally, I think this type of intervention should begin in elementary school all the way through high school. Kids are more obese today then any other time period and it has been caused by the access to fast food/processed food/and re-engineered grains, fruits, and vegetables. I also think that parents should be EDUCATED during the school year about the importance of nutrition/exercise/sleep and make it a top priority for their child(ren) to achieve/maintain a healthy weight and BMI.

    Dr. Joel Furhman wages a convincing argument in his book entitled “Eat to Live.” Dr. Furhman is a cardiologist and methodically outlines in his book why our nation is over-fed, but under-nourished. 2/3 of all cancers are linked to poor nutrition and obesity. Since reading Dr. Furhman’s book two months ago, I personally implemented his findings/recommendations and have already lost 20 lbs and my total cholesterol has went down 30 points! I am now eating 98-100% nutrient-dense foods and have eliminated all fats/sugar/sodium/animal products that cause us to over-eat and become overweight.

    Life is so much more complex and challenging then yesteryear. We are constantly being told mis-information and lies that hurt our health. Head and neck cancers are on the uprise because of the spreading of the HPV virus. Instead of educating kids about the risk factors involved with oral sex, the health care industry would rather prescribe them a vaccine to help prevent it. Girls, especially are encouraged to the get the vaccine before they are sexually active. The same goes with homosexual males who contract HIV. They are 300% more likely to contract lymphoma or Kaposi’s Sarcoma. Yet, we never hear a word about those statistics! As a taxpayer, it bothers me to have to pay for serious illnesses caused by choices.

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: Cripes, people on here have lost all sense of irony. Obviously, I was exaggerating for effect to say that people go to the ER for a hangnail, but if they don’t have a family doctor, they do go to the ER for things that really should not go to a hospital, and that was my point.

      Beyond that, I don’t have any quibble with the rest of what you just said. I don’t see how it can be seen as a disagreement.

      But I do have one quibble. At the end of your long post (and, yes, I did read it all), you commented that GAYS who contract HIV are more likely to contract illnesses. You ask why we don’t hear about that. I suspect because it’s not “news.” The MEANING of AIDS is immuno-deficiency. Does anybody NOT know that people don’t die of AIDS? They die of illnesses that their immune system can no longer fight, right?

      • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

        Goethe, your writing style and adherence to facts and citings suggest to your readers that you are no nonsense and logical minded. For that reason, I sometimes can’t “read” you when you are using irony or hyperbole.

        Yes, the acronym “Aids” stands for acquired immunodeficiency syndrome. There is no cure for HIV/AIDS, but a variety of drugs can be used in combination to control the virus. My point, while not very well defined is this: It is a disease that is most always caused by risky behaviors (sharing needles or engaging in un-protective sex) and its cost to society and taxpayers is never discussed. Many patients with this disease do die from infections and secondary diseases that their bodies can’t combat. As a health care provider, I equate it with an alcoholic who knows the risk of excessive drinking, but continues to pickle his/her liver and then needs a liver transplant or government assistance (applies for medicaid/SSI benefits) to pay for their medical bills.

        I often wonder if the HIV patient could look into a crystal ball and see what awaits him/her, would they still continue the behavior?

        There are numerous public service announcements showing the dire consequences of texting while driving, but no one ever runs ads (TV/Radio) anymore about the consequences of acquiring an STD.

        • Goethe Behr

          Daisy: I think there are several reasons why AIDS continues. First, sex is a primal human drive. Second, we delude ourselves when we want something badly, so people figure it can’t happen to them–or that their partner is wearing a tie, so he must be upright. But mainly, I think the progress in treatment has given false confidence.

          Most of the time, when you hear a media story on AIDS now, the topic is how someone has lived 20 years with AIDS, or that a cocktail of drugs can keep it at bay. So it no longer seems like a death sentence.

          Perhaps it would help if when a celebrity dies of it, the media angle is that it can happen to anyone–and even money can’t help you. Trouble is, that would be insensitive to the family (unless they are enlisted into the campaign).

          And, thank you for your kind words. I do try to document my facts. Of course, it’s a lot easier to be rational if you are not emotionally involved in a topic. Since I have Medicare, I don’t have to worry about the ACA. And since most of the people, and all the hysteria on this topic is against Obamacare, I have tried to argue against the more extreme assertions about it.

      • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

        Tess,

        You are right in that many young working people are uninsured, not because the insurance coverage wasn’t offered to them, but because they didn’t want to pay the premiums or co-pays. Case in point ~ There was a beautful 23 y.o. college student who worked in my primary investigator’s lab as a student, then got hired on full time after she graduated. She had 30 days to enroll in one of five health care plans offered to every employee, but she declined. She had insurance through her father’s employer, but there was a high co-pay/deductible for the ER.

        The girl kept getting re-current UTI’s and was on/off antibiotics several times during a 9 month period. She also had excruiating pain that left her bedridden for several days on end. She refused to go to the ER and just went to the student-employee clinic. Then one day, she couldn’t bear weight and knew that something was terriblly wrong. Her co-workers in the lab wheeled her to the ER. Many tests/scans were performed only to give the devastating news: She had stage IV renal cell carcinoma. The disease had already metastasized to her spine and several of her vertebrae and ribs showed breaks. She had to undergo extensive surgery and resection of her diseased kidney. She was not allowed to walk for almost a year, but laid immobile in a cast until she healed.

        Did our health care system fail her, or did she exercise her right to choose (decline the options before her), gambled and lost?

        I’ve heard it said that Obamacare needs 7 million enrollees to just break even, but they are hoping for 30 million. Time will only tell if the millenials and other un-insured jump on board.

        Regarding your statement about corporate munchers…..I asked my husband about it (he specializes in tax law/financial investing) and he said that GE was able to pay no income tax due to its <> in the previous year(s). Companies have up to 15 years to claim the loss.

        You are right about our common passion. I spent 25 years of my career helping children improve their lives and mending their diseased bodies. They are our heart, our joy, our future !

        • Goethe Behr

          Daisy: Regarding the 23-year-old girl, you said she was covered by her father’s insurance. While there was a high ER copay, I assume that her other care was covered, right?

          I think your point was that she didn’t go to the ER because she would have to pay for it–so her condition got out of control. I think that’s an argument for requiring insurance. People DO put off care if they are not insured. And things get very expensive.

          Anyway, since she was covered by her father’s insurance, I don’t think it was irresponsible to decline additional coverage.

      • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

        Tess, the words “net operating loss” got lost when I enunciated them with arrows.

        • Tess Trueheart

          Daisy…I am not an accountant by trade but I do know that partnerships, S-corporations and limited liability companies have a different set of tax rules (code) to follow than other types of businesses, particularly the small ones. A quick example: If the Stock Market falls and shares of stock slip below the price the company originally paid for the shares, the investment is considered a negative worth and therefore a net loss. An accomplished financial officer is paid extremely well to find all loopholes in the IRS codes and I understand that is his purpose but I do not applaud him. When a corporation has a net profit of millions, with or without the arrows, and pays not one penny in taxes, something smells.

  • Josh

    Goethe – you are making the false assumption that the only way payments get made to health care providers for the uninsured is from the federal government. But there are other ways to pay for health care – cash, borrowing, charities, write-off…etc. The uninsured argument is really a red herring. I only brought it up because that’s one reason Obama gave as justification for the mandate. but it is baseless since there are so many other ways the health care for the uninsured gets paid.

    Its still a bad idea to force someone to buy health insurance for themselves.

    The reason i don’t oppose auto-insurance is 2 fold – :
    1. The insurance you are required to buy is liability only – insurance for someone you hit
    2. You don’t have to buy insurance for yourself
    3. You don’t have to drive, so you don’t have to have insurance

    Obamacare is different:

    1. The insurance you buy is for yourself (or your family), but you don’t get coverage for strangers
    2. The requirement is unavoidable, if you exist you must have it

    There are certain requirements that are understandable. That is one of them. It is because it directly benefits someone else for you to have it.

    It is not inconsistent. the only similarities between the requirements is the word ‘insurance’

    And its a bad answer to require the entire nation to buy health insurance just to cover a small portion of the society.

    one thing they could do, instead of the full national requirement, is to create a voluntary program people can participate in as ‘liability’ for serious disease or catastrophic accident only coverage (nothing else). Then allow provider’s to turn people away if they don’t agree to pay, or don’t have the minimum liability.

    There really isn’t an easy way around this, but the mandate is the a terrible idea.

    Some might say that’s heartless, but it is heartless to create a slave society, enslaved to each other by dictate of their government.

    • Goethe Behr

      Josh: I disagree that car insurance doesn’t insure the insured person. While it may not cover their medical care, it does cover their fiscal responsibility. A better angle is that requirement to pay a fee for not having insurance is a way that the person pays toward the care of others without personal benefit.

      If you are saying that the added income from insuring everyone will only go to a few people who are uninsured and need care, then what that means is in addition to “curing” that problem, universal coverage should reduce the cost of all other policies. Of course, that probably won’t happen, since insurance company executive pay will skyrocket, instead.

      I agree that there might be other ways to accomplish the goals. But one of them is not to just let people die. That ain’t-a-gonna happen in the US of A.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    I don’t recall how much her deductible was, but my ER coverage is 80% after I meet the $400 annual deductible. For this reason, most employees don’t go to the ER until the last resort. Compare that to going to a primary care physician (who is in network) that requires no deductible and covers 100% of the fees. My monthly premiums is only $64.71. I think that is very affordable, even if it only covers me. Hubs has his own insurance.

    The exchanges are structured similarly. I also heard that monthly premiums are upward to $150 mo/per person. The biggest actuary “trick” that Obamacare has implemented is to make everyone pay the same premium regardless of age, so not to have targeted the biggest users (55 and older) for they certainly would have seen how “un-affordable” it is.

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: thanks for the thoughtful response. I should have earlier said that you provide substance in your posts, and that allows serious discussion.

      Anyway, I had heard that premiums could be less than $100. My guess is that they’re shooting in the dark. I suspect that they are setting initial premiums, but if Free Enterprise works, competition will bring them down. Of course, we’ll probably just see bigger yachts for corporate CEOs…

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    You are welcome Goethe. I really like coming to this site and hearing everyone’s opinion. Everyone has a unique perspective and are knowledgable in so many topics. The press on the other hand, spins everything and slants it to support whatever side/issue that they are supporting. With all the mis-information out there, it is nice to find people who are pursuing the truth with facts and logic!

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Goethe, you are also right about the spinning of HIV/Aids and how the media wants the populace to think that it is curable and no longer a threat to our health. They are doing a good job when you consider that the population whose incidence is rising the fastest is now the 18-34 year old’s.

    If you want to learn how the Gay community effectively changed the public’s perception about homosexuality and made it a “condition” in the DSM, read Dr. Jeffrey Satinover’s book “Homosexuality and the politics of Truth”. He uses the outcomes from the University of Minnesota Twin’s study to show why homosexuality isn’t an inheritable trait.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Hubs is a CPA and a financial investor. He is as honest as the day is long. He doesn’t “make” the laws, but he does have to understand them and implement them.

    • Tess Trueheart

      Daisy…when I used the term Financial Officer, it is not in the same respect as when I would use Financial Investor. Many, Many Americans would be on the dole today if they had not selected a wise Financial Investor.

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Amen to that Tess!

    Hopefully the powers that be today can come today and settle their differences BEFORE the 17th. I’d hate to see China and Japan
    getting all riled up and then calling in all their notes.