I don’t know what to make of this one, new information coming out daily and it just keeps getting more and more bizarre.

Report from New York Daily News:

David Petraeus’s tunning downfall took another salacious turn Monday as it was revealed the FBI agent who began investigating the disgraced spy chief allegedly sent shirtless photos of himself to the woman who sparked the probe.

The unnamed agent was a friend of Jill Kelley, the raven-haired knockout whom Petraeus biographer Paula Broadwell jealously suspected of having the hots for the former CIA director, The Wall Street Journal reported.

Broadwell bombarded Kelley with anonymous, threatening emails accusing her of having a relationship with the spy chief, with whom she had previously had an extramarital affair. In one email, Broadwell “claimed to have watched Ms. Kelley touching ‘him’ provocatively underneath a table,” according to the paper.

The get-away-from-my-man emails so unnerved Kelley that she complained to an FBI pal of hers. But as the investigation gained momentum, the FBI agent who knew Kelley was taken off of the case by superiors who were worried “he might have grown obsessed with the matter,” the paper reported.

And it appeared their concern was justified.

What the heck is going on with this? How does it relate to Benghazi, if at all? Is there a coverup afoot or is this just contained to a lack of moral judgment on the part of Petraeus?


  1. He was merely tempted by desirable woman n perhaps he was in a marriage that was void of sex, which happens more than not in long marriages. Sex outside his marriage and all this hoopla when he already resigned is just media throw up. We have much more important newsworthy matters to cover! Leave this to the parties concerned in this circle of lust!

    • Hello Janice, Your comments are right-on! General Petreous gave 40 years of superior service to his country. Now, he made a mistake – like many men do – and is being thrown into the garbage bin like a discard? About 90% of our government officials should be in a garbage bin – not Petreous!
      This whole situation is a sad commentary on our media and government!

      I served for 20 years in the military and know first hand how this dedication
      to serve can become difficult to bear. I will always admire Genral Petreous!!
      Daniel Stone

      • Danoel:

        I agree. In this case, it was an indiscretion that was ENDED months ago. Ancient history. Obama should not have accepted his resignation, but I assume Petraeus figured the congressional circus would be worse if he tried to defend his position.

        The only thing that could be a concern is if Ms. Broadwell was able to compromise security in some way, but we have no reason to think that. So unless some damage is shown, we should hang tattletale Kelley by the thumbs somewhere. . . .

        • Hi Goethe, It may have ended any chance General Petreous could run for President in 2016.
          But we don’t know and I believe history has shown us to expect the
          Of course, this presumes we will still be a superpower after another four years of this administration and still have free elections!

  2. When I heard the news this morning, I imagined what Saturday Night Live could do with this. In the old days, they said, “I love the smell of napalm in the morning,” and now they say, “I love a man in a uniform.” At every turn, soldiers and contractors are jumping into each other’s arms, and who could avoid a shooting range scene, in which the instructor has his arms around a nubile cadet, steadying her aim–and then “patting her down.”

  3. Seriously, folks, there’s all kindsa stuff coming out all at once. For instance, Ron Paul recently said that we don’t have “embassies,” we have spy missions. Today, they reported that Benghazi was actually a CIA internment unit, and that the attack there was to retrieve prisoners–and Stevens just showed up on the wrong day.

  4. Though bombarded hourly with salacious details of Petraeus’ indiscretions, it’s curious we have yet to hear reporting on the Benghazi murders & the government cover-up that followed (aside from FOX news). Perhaps, the media will now be forced to get to a heinous security issue since sex now plays a part in the saga! Truly, a pathetic indictment of the priorities of a free press.

    • Rosa:

      It only seems like a lack of reporting if you only watch Fox. Obviously, you’re not going to hear other reports if you only watch fox.

      As noted above, today there was a report that Benghazi was a CIA outpost which was holding prisoners. The attack was apparently organized to free the prisoners. Unfortunately, Stevens appeared at the outpost the night before the attack.

      This explains why the CIA did not want to comment on the event.

      • Only liberal defenders of the admin attack FOX at every opportunity. My comment was not political. Fyi, I’ve many news sources from print media, online, radio & t.v. Catherine Herridge & Jennifer Griffin of FOX are the only 2 reporters on the Benghazi story & are even quoted in other media. . .

        • Rosa:

          No, there are lots of people who attack fox–because they have a NeoCon agenda that they push, and twist facts to fit. And of course, fox people will be quoted by other media–since they have done all-Benghazi all-the-time, so nobody else bothers with it. But of course, if they are quoted by other media, that also puts a lie to the line that only fox is reporting on it, wouldn’t you say?

          • Perhaps, you favor MSNBC for your news, right arm of the President’s campaign team? Regardless of the news outlet, what matters here is the Benghazi tragedy, the lack of security at the consulate & the disgraceful lack of response to the terrorist attack. I could care less about salacious details of a sex saga. Another diversion from the public’s right to know.

            • Rosa:

              No, I don’t watch MSNBC and I don’t watch fox. I have better things to do than watch either of those BS factories.

              There is a lot more to come out about the whole Benghazi event. It may be years before it all comes out, since it is cloaked in CIA secrecy–because it was a CIA base.

          • For sure but where there is smoke …………and the CIA was quick to deny it so there must be some truth to it.

            • Billy: Mostly, I don’t think the CIA likes people to know what they do in the inky shadows. They like to have total deniability.

            • They sure seem to want the spotlight turn on full bright when they knock off or capture some framed “enemy combatant”.

        • Goethe Behr. Paula Broadwell was the source of info that Libyan militia were being held as prisoners at the CIA Annex. She spilled this “classified” info during a talk at Univ of Denver in Oct. YouTube video is online. Before this became a sex saga, the mass media did not give a care about the Benghazi murders of our ambassador & 3 others because the obvious implications could interfere with the re-election of the Leader-in-Chief.

          • Rosanadana – i agree with you plus the various Arab communities knew about the temporary holding area of terrorists. So the only people that didn’t know was the US public until Broadwell shot her mouth off trying to impress her Alumni. I still contend “Wag the Dog” alliance of BO and MSM!

            • Unless the mainstream media holds itself to a higher standard & brings us the facts, just the facts, this country will never have a fair & honest election again. While reporting was biased to a degree in 2008, this election the media, with few exceptions, functioned as an arm of the Obama campaign. Since when did freedom of the press translate to “King-Maker?”

            • I don’t think the FCC does anything at all anymore. They used to have the Fairness Doctrine, but now they don’t really do much of anything, except try to keep one wavelength from overpowering another, and they don’t seem to do all that well at that, anymore, either. The band is so packed with stations now that it’s not uncommon to have three stations leaking into each other.

            • Goethe – about the FCC, yepper, depending on baseband, modulation, power, geography, and atmospheric skip – violations happen all the time. But FCC can influence content, especially if directed by the Administration and/or big money control. Those same influences are now using more direct paths instead of trying to work behind the scenes.

            • Well they get a million dollars a day for their 2000 employees. That’s 500 a day per employee. (7 days a week)

            • I did a little work for NBC many years back. Came as a bit of a surprise but I learned what “freedom” American style meant. Freedom to do exactly as you are told to do or you lose something you never really has.

            • Rosanadana – the media has been severley called for liberal bias and they have basically admitted their ideology preference is liberal vice conservative – plus – BO became their savior in the summer of ’08 and they will never admit they made a bad choice. Fox is the only MSM that leans conservative and it has grown their base considerably. The MSM while not talking about conservatives have already been sprouting Clinton for 2016 (if we should ever have another election – which is a question mark). Unfortunately the mainstream public don’t watch anything but MSM and do very little Web browsing for other stories and ideologies (they are too busy or told other media outlets are right-wing freaks). But MSM has aligned Benghazi to all Petraeus – so when the House investigation starts today they will focus on CIA instead of the White House who told the military to “stand down” while they were watching, causing four American deaths

            • Causing ? ? ? My take is that Ansar told his boys to bag Chris and put him on ice as a
              bargaining chip for a few of his guys the CIA was holding. Chris crawled into the not so safe house and they tried to smoke him out. Knowing how the not so quick USA response team works they almost pulled it off. The best-laid plans of mice and men often go astray

            • Billy: I agree. When we let our military and/or spies use civilians as a shield, we are calling “open season” on every minister, medic, reporter, and ambassador who leaves our shores. I hope that becomes part of the inquiry.

            • MSM has focused on CIA intel in the Benghazi tragedy, or avoided any coverage, a story line married to White House political talking points since 9/11/12. To identify Benghazi a “terrorist attack” prior to the election would have revealed substantial spread of Jihadist extremists & Al Queda –a message directly at odds with Obama’s campaign, his much-heralded foreign policy success being the killing of Bin Laden.
              Americans have been told that as a result of removing top AlQueda leaders, we are safer. In fact, we are more at risk! Extremists have now proliferated the region, evidenced by hateful anti-American protests in 22 countries on 9/11/12. Despite facts, MSM towed the line to protect/establish the image/credibility of Pres Obama. Exactly a week after Obama’s re-election, we learn from Congressional hearings under oath that Benghazi was without question, an organized “terrorist attack.” How does MSM explain themselves? This information might well have changed the election!!!

            • I doubt it as the election was all about free cell phones and food stamps. That 47% is hard to overcome. Then too picking an opponent from the bottom of the barrel made the election just a formality.

            • You quickly brought me down to earth. For a brief moment, I’d forgotten that the election wasn’t lost due to cogent argument but to “stuff,” like the mini-dream act, contraceptive & morning after pills, promises over college loans, easier Medicaid & food stamps & as you said, “Obama phones.” I never ever heard the word “debt” or “deficit” coming out of Obama’s mouth, much less a proposal for fixing it. It is pathetic to realize that half or more of our population doesn’t know or care about the serious issues but votes on freebies.

            • Rosanadana – Now even theconservatives are trying to serve Romney up, falsely i might add. Romney was simply telling the truth. And as MSM tried as much as they after vetting him and not finding any thing wrong, just begin to slander him because he was not a liberal and opposed BO. He would have brought us back and not let us become the next England, then Greece.

              Billy – if Romney is at the bottom of a barrel, at least he’s on the surface. BO and his Administration is lower than whale dung at the bottom of the ocean in the Mariana’s Trench. After BO, this person(?), finishes with the US we will be bankrupt, a second rate nation and unable to defend ourselves and most of our guns taken away from us. But yeah, Billy, you go after Johnson, too bad there won’t be anymore elections.

            • Sam:

              On the contrary, Willard IS a liberal. He tried to paint himself as a victim (one who is “Entitled” must have an excuse), but he just had no character to fall back on. King of debt. Taker of mega-bailouts. Crusher of industry. There were so many things wrong with that boy that if it weren’t for the Barry economy, he would have won Utah and Texas and that’s about it.

            • Since when is someone disqualified to run for president because he’s RICH? Would you prefer someone without a dime in his pocket? Or someone who’d never achieved anything except write a book about his search for his own identity because he dislikes white people? Someone with absolutely no experience for the office? Well you’ve got him & let’s talk again in 4 more yrs!

            • H should have been disqualified because or his track record in Ma. 47 out of 50 in job growth and 50 out of 50 in debt per capita. Dead last in my book for sure in looking for someone who can create jobs and handle debt.

            • Billy – still better than the dude that was never vetted, searching for an identity (2 races, 3 nationalities), belonging to a religion trying to overcome the USA, with no business leadership and political knowledge zip point dip crap

            • Gee you may be right but not by much. I lived in Chicago for a while and any politician who even flew over that cesspool would never get my vote.

            • Ros:

              I didn’t say anything about Willard being rich, except that we DO have classes in this country, and they see reality differently. So if you want to start a business, you can just borrow one or two hundred THOUSAND from your parents, right? That’s how Willard thinks, and that’s ok, but it shows that his “solutions” make no sense for the rest of us.

              I guess you’re trying to beat up on Barry, thinking I’ll care. I have the luxury of laughing.

              But Willard’s “experience” was in being “king of debt” and “Taker of Mega-Bailouts,” and “Crusher of Industry.” And I’m sure we do not want the very mentality that got us into this mess.

            • It just shows how stupid the voters are. How did the guy even get on the ticket. But hey, if a black politician from Chicago can do it, why not?

            • Billy:

              Don’t blame the voters. Mainly, Willard BOUGHT the primaries (spending up to 17:1), just like he bought the governorship. Also, of course, the GOP establishment changed rules and made other changes to grease the skids for him.

            • We talked about this before that once he goes up against Obama he will not have that huge advantage. I never thought it would be as close as it was. Didn’t collect but 1/2 of the money I put on Obama. Them Romney people are just poor losers.

            • Black politicians have a really poor record at turning things around but they usually get elected when things are really bad.

              I’ve posted my standards and my standards are obviously not those of the nation. Sorry but but candidates fail in that they were never a governor of a state and been rated in the top 10. Guess it’s way too high a standard but I voted for a man who met it. He left office with a billion dollar surplus,your man left with a billion dollar debt. So one of use just doesn’t know how to count. No problem on this end as I’ve been wrong a lot more times than right. Never voted for a winner in any election as best I can recall.

            • Rosa:

              That kind of thinking will make the GOP the permanent minority. More Romney victim mentality. Poor Willard. He didn’t lose because he was a out-of-touch flip-flopper. Nope. It was someone else’s fault.

            • Well he darn sure couldn’t run on his record but then the voters didn’t seem to care about anyone’s record. Food stamps and cell phones.

            • Hey, hey, Obama has been campaigning for 4 yrs saying it’s all “Bush’s fault.” Republicans including Romney are wise to analyze the election, just as Dems did in 2010 after losing control of the House. Incumbents have an advantage to set the stage for the next election: executive orders, bills & regulations that favor their base. This is, in fact, what Obama did. He has a shrewd campaign head in Axelrod who put the political spin on policy. Also, the partisan media acts as an arm of his campaign by not reporting stories, such as Benghazi, that would blemish the “AlQueda is gone” rhetoric. Can’t buy such free propaganda. Obama won but not by a landslide, in fact, narrowly. He has no mandate from the public. Romney & we the people lost. d

            • Those 47% have no idea about debt as they owe little or nothing to anybody. Now the other 53% who want the 47% to give up their free cell phones and food stamps so the government can get them out from under the enormous debt they have acquired because of the 5000+ sq ft houses they live in that are now underwater. Then too maybe a little help on the his and her’s BMWs in the driveway. Point is how would you know what debt is unless you are part of it?

  5. The affair ended 4 months ago and the love notes were passed by way of “drafts” in a shared google g-mail account. Smacks of Edgar Hoover and his notorious files of indiscretions. Keep them locked up until you need something for leverage and to pull the “spymaster’s” strings.

    Men in power (anyone remember FDR’s; JFK’s; and General Eisenhower’s mistresses?) are big targets for opportunists, especially younger, sexier ones.

    Maybe the mainstream press will take notice now that it involves sex????

  6. This seems strange to me. I wonder what the hand is doing that we’re not watching? This is too convenient of timing to not be suspicious. It looks to be a distraction, but from what I don’t know….the media has a new shiny thing. We really gotta pray for their focus and clarity. in these times the people need good information.

    If the guy cheated on his wife, he can’t be trusted not to cheat elsewhere if its in his better interest or be fooled into doing something stupid because his senses get distracted, so I’m glad he’s gone from CIA. It’d be the same if he were found to be cheating on taxes or lying about college transcripts…we need trustworthy people in these roles.

    Wish him all the best though, and his family (this is a tough thing for them). He’s a true American hero, who unfortunately embraced too much of the darkness of fallen humanity.

    Wonder if anyone has the bandwidth right now to be watching the Prez and Congress – what they’re doing with budget, taxes, and regulation for next year?

    • Josh – which century are you living in?? 19th maybe?? FDR, Ike, JFK, probably LBJ, maybe even Carter, Nixon (if not extra-martial, other), probably Reagan in his Hollywood days, Bush’s – who knows, what happens in TX stays in TX, Clinton – my guess is BO probably a gay affair. You can bet Petraeus and Miller didn’t let the little head get in the way of the big head when taking care of business and war, or they wouldn’t have made 4 stars or selected to CinC CIA.

      • But a lot of smart people do dumb things. Even dumber if you get caught. This guy is suppose to be brilliant in all 3 fields of battle. Well we’ll see how he covers his retreat. I bet it cost him though $ $ $.

        • Yes – It’ll will cost him about 60% of his and his wife’s stash + and a few hundred K a year as CIA chief or maybe next SecDef. But he won’t go broke on the $40K/year DFAS, just lose all his “honeys”. He still took care of biz just fine and was ‘thrown under the bus’ for the “wag the dog” FlailEX to throw the hounds off BO’s miscarriage of leadership. If BO were a republican he would have already been impeached and never even made it to the election.

            • Goethe – not sure about the “malarkey”? Main Media (ABC,CBS,NBC) bias or “Wag The Dog”. I think we have been down the Media thing and you think that MSM is quite fair in their coverage of both Ideologies, so i see no point in re-discussing that. And if you don’t think that the Petraeus’ issues are a media blast and diversion from BO actions regarding Benghazi (which the MSM is still ignoring) – then you and I are miles apart and not worth the discussion because we won’t get near concurrence. I just wish when the House get around to a discovery (the 15th??) that is would become public on C-SPAN. all countries involved already know the particulars and have fed them to the Non-MSM medias.

            • People who live in Glass Houses department:

              Jill Kelley, Petraeus Whistleblower, Owes Millions In Debt: Report

              Jill Kelley, the Florida woman who first exposed the sex scandal that led Gen. David Petraeus to resign, had major legal and financial trouble long before she burst into the spotlight, according to recent reports.

              Kelley, 37, and her husband Scott Kelley, a cancer surgeon in Tampa, Fla., have been sued at least nine times, according to the Tampa Bay Times. Despite their lavish lifestyle, they face foreclosure and massive amounts of debt, according to court documents.

            • Billy:

              Yeah, I see Kelley as the real villain here. If she had kept her mouth shut, nobody would have known about the affair that ended four months prior. The general could have tried to find ways to make it up to Holly, and she might have thought the extra attention was just because he no longer had to worry about Afghanistan.

              Not only was Kelley having her own dalliance, but she seemed like a general lie and cheat in a number of facets of life. Too bad we don’t just “consider the source” of such information and leave it alone.

            • Hey many a woman has pulled the rug out from under many a great men. So long as it isn’t you standing on said rug it’s kind of funny. Not so funny for Holly though.

              The jails are full of the not so great men who suffered the same fate . Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”?

            • Billy:

              I have no problem with a “woman scorned.” If Broadwell had gone public after being dumped, I’d say “no foul.” But Tripp and Kelley were onlookers whose only goal was to hurt others, for no good purpose. Kelley is foul.

            • Billy:

              No, we know enough for this one. Broadwell was hurt and jealous and thought Kelley was a threat. That’s sad, but normal.

              Instead of ignoring emails (I mean, seriously, emails), and instead of just replying or calling Broadwell, Kelley did the one thing that was SURE to destroy Broadwell AND Petraeus. Her overinflated ego had her call the FBI. It was a premeditated effort, And she deserves anything that now comes to light about her other shady dealings.

              Kelley is a parasite, whose lifestyle sucked it’s life from the military establishment in Tampa. We don’t need more information to see that.

          • Once again it’s the laws of nature vs the laws of man. (WE don’t know of he broke any laws yet though as sex is still more of a right than a privilege in many of the states.)

        • Billy:

          Very powerful people can hardly be expected to realize that they are not God. After awhile, I don’t know how anyone could comprehend that they have to act like the lowlies.

      • Billy, I don’t think comparing a 60 year old woman to a 40 year old is fair do you?
        Especially when you find out that Mrs. Petraeus moved her family twenty-three times in thirty-six years and was a loyal and loving military wife. Many military wives cheat and leave their husbands the first time that they get deployed!

        I wonder what the general’s friends and children think?

        Our country’s morals and VALUES are being shredded by porn and whores!

        • Daisy – You are absolutely correct about 60/40 and I’m guessing Mrs. Petraeus was a beautiful woman when she met her husband. But insincere and insecure military marriages were very plentiful in yester years. Back when i mess cooked on Noah’s Ark, what men did in the “theater” stayed in the theater” and when we (or any ship) was/were returning to Homeport after 6 to 8 mos out – they would announce over the PA which ship(s) were returning in the O Club and the E clubs and usually a number of ladies would rise and head for home. Daisy, we weren’t bad people, we lived in a different world and different lives. Nobody forces anybody to watch Porn and Prostitution is the oldest profession there is. Loneliness is a companion that causes a lot of people to make poor choices. If humans made the wrong Free Will choices, when their soul energy returns to the pure Energy Realm we/they will judge ourselves for making poor choices. Your morals are your morals and everyone has their own that are embedded in each of us as our Creator’s Energy. You just worry about listening to your own Soul Energy and let everyone else judge themselves.

          • Sam: Well put. I would go you one further. We put such men in very difficult positions. We also praise them as if they were God. Yet, we expect them to use power in one area and scrupulously avoid the “treats” that are thrown in their path.

            I liked it better when private lives were left private. Even with the cat out of the bag, this was not a transgression, since he was no longer in the military. Obama should have put his resignation on hold until further investigation of the matter.

            • Goethe – I agree with your short and to the point analyses – Don’t know why BO dumped him unless it was to fuel the fire of “Wag The Dog” and further obscure Benghazi.

            • Sam: I think it’s extremely unusual for a chief executive to refuse someone’s resignation. I think it would be seen as a sign of weakness–as if the person were irreplaceable.

              But it also could be seen as an insult. The person has made a decision about his future.

              Jeff Davis didn’t accept the resignation of Robert E. Lee after Gettysburg. Don’t know of other examples.

            • Goethe – you have a point. If it were standard politics or business BO and Petraeus would have had a “off line” discussion before any announcement. But there is nothing normal about this Administration and BO is still a Savior.

            • What’s Obama got to lose or gain here ? He already got all he wished for. Now it’s time to reward those chosen few who really helped him with taxpayer dollars.

          • The difference between yesterday and today Sam is that people were more discrete! People didn’t have video cameras at their immediate disposal and letters could be burned.
            Young people ALL want to be famous, no matter what the cost or who they hurt! Paula Broadwell wanted to keep her position as “top B*tch” and didn’t like it that another woman was getting more attention than she had gotten. Remember Lisa Nowak, the diaper wearing astronaut? She was on a mission to kill the other woman! You can also kill people and positions with your words….

            Paula is a military officer (reservist) and was taught INTEGRITY. She has disgraced her uniform and breeched national security.

            In regards to porn, it is a different animal today than in your time Sam. It is available 24-7 and it is the first thing that most men (according to a national survey) check out when they first enter a hotel room. Women, on the other hand check out the toiletries and amenities.

          • Sam, save your “relativism” speech for someone else. It is the reason why there are NO moral absolutes anymore and why our country is going down the shitter. The 10 commandments USE to be posted about the pencil sharpner for every kid to see what God considers to be wrong. Now, people do whatever they want with little regard for their fellow human being. Children aren’t safe to play outdoors anymore because predators are lurking everywhere. Drugs, porn, professional sports, and continous television/computer viewing are the idols of today.

            • Daisy – I think you misconstrue my definition of Morals. It certainly is not Relativism. Morals are universal and absolute. The law of Reciprocity and the study of and try to adhere to “Unconditional Love”. different societies may deliver specific subsets and the leader(s) may say this is what “our society needs for peace and growth.” Usually a religious figure is leader or “King”, and most frequently for power and control. We came here with the two understandings of the “Golden Rule” and Love without Limitation, and it lives within us. If your energy is so bent that you have to rely on a subset derived 3500 years ago by a religious leader that says God touched his finger, you are pretty insecure. Trusting your energy, strength, and instinct is all you need. People may not always obey, but even with brainwashing everyone knows deep down right from wrong and good from un-good.

            • And far to often does but that’s the way we were put together and no man made law is going to change nature’s law.

        • Miss Daisy, sex trumps everything except survival. I’m sure you have heard of Helen back a few years ago who relocated to Troy.

  7. Their is a certain element of concern on the security integrity (“loose lips”) of the two Generals / CIA involvement even as evidenced by Broadwell mouthing off in Denver about enemy prisoners. Once upon a few decades ago extra-marital affairs were punishable via the UCMJ upto & including Courtmartial. Today’s world, if no security breach, who’s gonna Courtmartial a CinC, especially for simple “conduct not becoming an Officer and Gentleman).

    Any prisoners btw had been moved 2 weeks earlier. If al Qaeda knew they were they knew they had been as well. This is clearly a “Wag The Dog” scenario to cover-up BO’s stupidity for letting four (almost 24) of his employees get murdered while he watched on drone satellite video stream in his situation room. He either had a gig of his own going down (get Stevens captured and then negotiate a release prior to election day) or he was incredibly inept by telling his General and RADM to stand down. MainStreamMedia (MSM) covered it up completely until after the election.

    Who really controls the USofA???

    • Sam:

      The point is, if it’s a CIA facility, that means that it is NOT a civilian facility, and has no diplomatic immunity.

      • The CIA facility is the Annex. The facility Stevens was at was a temporary loaned facility by the Libyan government for Stevens for negotiations with Lybia and staffed with Libyan soldiers including a underdeveloped “Safe Room”. The Libyan soldiers were hired because the administration pulled the marine detachment 30 days prior. The two CIA marine and ex-marine left their CIA post to go to the Stevens’ facility and rescue the twenty state department people with Stevens.

      • and btw – CIA or not, a POTUS/CinC doesn’t let 24 of his own get sacrificed when less than 1 hour away are many facets available to kick enemy butt and ground has laser pointing for drones or other remote targeting.

          • Billy – really?? 44 years ago – Shouldn’t have to say anymore than LBJ – poor comms – Surprise attack (Benghazi was no surprise) – Pueblo’s machine guns couldn’t be spun up before being fired upon – F-4’s were >3hrs away and not rigged for air to surface. And LBJ wasn’t awakened till it was pretty much in the bag. Stupid Congress and Administration fighting a war under someone else’s rules, didn’t want to p..s off China and Russia and couldn’t make a decision to f..t or just be blind. We should have fought by our rules and flat kicked N.Korea’s butt 2-1/2 years earlier.

            • Aw Gee Goethe – the Pueblo i was pretty much aware of as i was on Navy active duty in ’68. The Liberty doesn’t strike a memory, so now you’re go gonna make me look it up. The only thing i remember since i’ve been around is if a Democrat Administration screws up they get a hand-slap or called a name and it’s “nothing here, move along”, but a Republican Administration and they are crucified,

            • Goethe – thanks for the URL on Liberty. – It did jog my memory. I was flying Air Crew in P-2’s in ’67 and our squadron almost went ballistic over what Israel did and even more so that LBJ let it drop. But at the same time, war wasn’t very popular and two wars would have been even less popular. What i had spaced out was Israel’s tricks for getting us in war with the Arabs. Now i’m not so sure about Israel and if they wouldn’t find a reason to attack Iran to get us actively involved in a mid-east war again.

            • Sam: That is exactly what I am worried about. As Netanyahu came right out and said last year–his foreign policy IS our foreign policy. We have no say in the matter. Yet we are the ones giving them a third of a TRILLION dollars EVERY year. Yet we stand in the corner and quiver and shake. It makes absolutely no sense to me. We should close the checkbook for a few months and see if they want to change their attitude.

              And now, we are at the edge of our chairs, to see what they will do regarding Iran. Iran can’t have the bomb, but of course, Israel can have it.

              And people around the world decry anyone who might deny Israel’s right to exist–but it’s perfectly ok, after 60 years, for Israel to deny Palestine’s right to exist.

            • Goethe – you are correct about the tricky Israelites. However, the discussion of who should occupy Palestine is an even trickier subject matter. Iraelites are willing to live by the 1947 accords but the Arab Muslim communities want all of Palestine instead of just the 1947 division. The more Arab Muslim Palestinians want to pick a fight with Israel, the more Israel wants to take them out. After Rome disbursed Jews for the final time in ~72CE Palistine was a Christian community until Muslims conquered it in ~634CE. So in 1947 The World tried to reach an equitable division rather than kick the Arab Palestinians completely out.

            • Sam: So they say. But in the real world, it ain’t that way. The Israelis just want to maintain the status quo, because the status quo gives them more than they would get otherwise.

              Every time you hear about any violence, it’s about the Palestinians lobbing some missiles which invariably fall somewhere that sees no casualties and little or no damage. Then you hear about the Israeli response, which ALWAYS includes both damage and deaths.

              Now, you might say if they kept quiet and stayed in their ghetto, then the Israelis wouldn’t attack them, but even that is not true, as they commonly bulldoze homes and assassinate Palestinians. Last week, they were talking about “preemptive” killings of Palestinians who are simply leaders of Hamas, and even Fatah.

              I’ll never forget hearing about an “Israeli helicopter gunship” firing missiles into an OX CART to kill a Palestinian leader. Imagine living in a world of ox carts and having the latest American technology rain down on you.

              We missed our last, best opportunity to get peace there. Hamas was honestly and legally elected to lead Palestine. There was ONE voice, and the fact that it was the most militant was a GOOD thing, because they could deliver anything that was agreed.

              The reason Arafat could never come to an agreement was that he knew he no longer could speak for the militants, and he could not promise their behavior. But when Hamas was elected, we could have sat down immediately and forged some kind of understanding.

              Instead, and despite our pompous words about “democracy,” we did everything we could to destroy what little they had. I don’t know how the Palestinians could ever consider the United States to be an honest broker now.

              I simply don’t believe Israel wants peace. As it is, they control the entire area, and at the same time, get a third of a TRILLION of our dollars EVERY year. What incentive do they have to GIVE UP territory and GIVE UP trillions of free money?

            • Goethe – We do agree that Israel is not to be trusted. However, several US hi-tech companies have alliances and divisions in Israel. Including the Intel’s second generation design of it’s latest microprocessor and the integrated Ivy bridge for multidevice interface both mobile and wireless. There are other Comms companies with interests in Israel.

              I know i’m prejudiced against extreme Muslims, but i don’t think we have a lot of business interests there just the illegal sale of firearms.

              So we give Israel $330B a year, total what we give the Muslim community. Far, far greater than 330Megabucks.

            • For sure, make what we spend of Israel chump change. We are talking a trillion or better here on war alone then the rebuilding after we knock everything down and end up with a country far worse of than when we started. Make a few rich people very rich indeed.

            • Now that I couldn’t agree with you more. If there is a hell both him and “Honest Abe” surly belong there.

            • Bet we could put together a real laundry list. A real joke if it were not for the fact that people died, a lot of people but never the right ones.

  8. My theory is that Patraeus was going to tell the truth about Benghazi. The Admin knew about his affair earlier and conveniently used it for blackmail purposes after the election and before he was to testify re: Benghazi.

    • Lisa: If the administration were using the information as “blackmail,” wouldn’t it make more sense to hold onto and keep using it??? Once it’s out, it would have no value at all. Worse, if you were correct, Petraeus would have “nothing to lose” now, and he could trash everyone, up and down the line, out of spite.

      The fact is that Petraeus was a very powerful man. He was put very close to a very attractive young woman. She idolized him. He also had a very stressful job. It is really not all that amazing or shocking that he gave in to such a tempting situation. The amazing thing is that men with such power and stress EVER keep to the boring straight-and-narrow.

      It really doesn’t have to be seen as some kind of elaborate plot against you.

        • Billy:

          That was what the recently found scroll was about:

          “Jesus said, my wife–” can’t ever find out about this.

          • Some things just take a little longer than others to figure out. I for one just don’t believe the preachers of yesterday were much different than the preachers of today.

  9. Goethe – I stand corrected about Palestine boundaries! I had totally spaced the 6 day war in ’67 when Israel warned Syria to stand the PLO down. Then Israel got very aggressive and went ballistic. But it allowed the Arab community to stay in the West Bank but said it still belongs to Israel. It is still the “Jews” land though, they just kept getting booted out of it. so in ’67 they did the booting. Religion just does some really weird things to people. I doubt Muslims and Jews will ever get along. Matter of fact i doubt that Muslims will happily co-equal-exist with any other religious group.

    • Sam:

      I don’t know. I’m an optimistic person. While it is true that there’s a lot of weird sh*t over there, a lot of it simply derives from the dictators we supported.

      Look at Turkey. They have a long history of co-existence. It can be done.

      The reason Palestine has not wanted peace is that they–literally–have had nothing to lose. Generally, if one state misbehaves, you punish that state. Israel does punish all Palestinians if they get mad, but it’s attacks on individuals, since the “state” of Palestine doesn’t exist.

      If Palestine had its own state, it would look inward, to make things better for its people. It certainly couldn’t be worse than the situation there now.

  10. Agree Goethe, however the Admin didn’t think he would resign, therefore I hope Petraeus does indeed trash everyone up and down the line, not for spite, but rather to hold them accountable.

    • Lisa: I don’t see that happening. Petraeus is already humiliated by an indiscretion. I doubt that he would further sully his image by trashing anyone.

      I don’t think he wants to talk about the CIA’s activities in our “embassies.” I suspect he will just repeat a timeline, saying that everybody did the best they could under the circumstances.

    • Lisa,

      It could be the biggest sting in American history! Petraeus has already publicly said that he will testify! He could bring down Obamanation and Hillary could step in and assume power. Wouldn’t that be something? HillBilly in the office again?

      • In latest news, what started out as a love triangle,

        between David and Holly Petreaus and Paula Broadwell

        has expanded to include Jill Kelley and Gen. John Allen.

        It is now a love pentagon.

      • Billy – Actually i don’t think Petreaus is concerned with buttered bread – he was about to be thrown under the bus, Holly probably already knew about the affair (she’s no dummy and you haven;t heard a word from her yet). he’s earned a substantial military retirement (DFAS), a government retirement and now a book that will fly off the shelves.

        Goethe – because of Benghazi, i think P. actually hooked up with BO and said, “FBI has found out about my affair 4 mos ago, make sure i get a fed retirement too, and i will create a diversion to take focus off of Benghazi.” Broadwell may have been told to bug Kelley and she and Allen got caught in the backwash.

        You can say B.S. all you want but there is still no real talk in the MSM about BO’s role in Benghazi and BO is the most guilty of all for the killing of four of his own and it would have been 24 except a couple of brave CIA marines disobeying orders.

        • Sam:

          To me, the Benghazi story shows that when we use ministers, medics, reporters, and ambassadors as covers for military duplicity, we endanger the lives of ministers, medics, reporters, and ambassadors–and make their job impossible.

          • Goethe – they have been using embassies and CIA stations together since the late ’30s. Every country does it. The State Dept (Ambassador) always has the Top power in the US, but not necessarily all other countries. Still it is always a FlailExercise and whizzing contest as to whose commands to follow. In this case the CIA Annex was about a mile away and that is where the detainees / prisoners had been held – they were moved two weeks prior and al Qaeda knew it. There attacked Steven’s building specifically to capture Stevens. If Petraeus is allowed to disclose the complete timeline and locations, this will come out. But I think P. will not be allowed to speak freely and Congress will not be allowed to quiz him fully. The General and the Admiral will probably not be allowed to testify because they had received the “stand down” or similar command and told not to engage.

            No matter what you think the Petraeus affair is a mis-direction for full disclosure about Benghazi.

        • Hey getting caught is never the fun thing to do. I no doubt put too much weight on the money part of it. I’ve just seen that aspect of it cause many a guy to walk the line.

          • Billy Malone…without a doubt you were born and bred below the Mason/Dixon. I am from the land of cowboys and oil wells so I applaud some of your tongue in check Rules of Engagement. However, Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice states that “adultery is clearly unacceptable conduct, and it reflects adversely on the service record of the military member. It is punishable by dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and even a one-year prison term”. Eugene Fidell, a military law scholar at Yale University, states “Retired regulars who draw pay are subject to the UCMJ, for life”.

            • Tess:

              But doesn’t “punishable” allow discretion? In this case, Petraeus apparently corrected his behavior months ago.

              Also, it occurred after he had left the service.

              Way too many careers have been destroyed because of a private, personal indiscretion that has no impact on public service.

            • Tess – you are correct on all counts, including subject to the UCMJ is drawing money from DFAS. But They (Gov. Mil, specific politician) would have to really build a case to go after a retiree drawing DFAS. Which by the way that is the real law. not just retired but subject to or already drawing retired pay from DFAS. There is also a regulation that is not in uniform and your views are not referencing your service, you have additional leeway. At this point Allen is in much hotter water than P. and P. need only worry what he told Broadwell that went past her secret level clearance and “need to know”.

            • Can’t believe he wanted it to end this way though. Oh some will still ask for an autograph but others may not be so kind when he is in public

            • Billy – only those that are “Holier than thou”. A lot of us have made choices we regretted but then make the best we can of those choice. That’s the reason i put at the bottom of lot of emails: “There is nothing wrong with any of us that reincarnation won’t cure.” And I’m sure P. would have liked to finish like Powell did, but even Powell let some bigotry through.

            • We may never know the real story here. It has been my experience in life that when two people are together nothing comes between them for the most part as I know of only one exception. I have read of many though. (exceptions)

  11. Interesting report on the Petraeus scandal today. Here he is, the head of the CIA, and he is caught by his own snooping techniques.

    The way I understand it, Petraeus knew he was doing wrong, so he gave her his email password. Instead of sending her emails, which he knew could be hacked, he wrote “drafts” of emails. Then she logged onto his account and just looked in the “draft” folder.

    Makes one wonder why they didn’t DELETE the “drafts.” Hubris? Or sense of security–as if any of us had any privacy anymore. If they had deleted the “drafts,” it would all be hearsay in ancient history–since they claim the affair ended four months ago.

    So if Broadwell had pissed off Kelley, and Kelley complained, it might have been seen as simply a “catfight.”

    By the way, this whole thing sounds like a cheap porn story–Her name is “BROADwell,” she writes a book about him called “All In,” with a chapter called “Anaconda.”

  12. Sam,

    You wrote: “If your energy is so bent that you have to rely on a subset derived 3500 years ago by a religious leader that says God touched his finger, you are pretty insecure.”

    If you are referring to Jesus, then he would be 2,048 years old (in human years) today. The reference to God touching his finger is in reference to what? Michaleango’s “Creation of Adam” a fresco in the Sistine Chapel? It was a depication of God touching Adam~ the first man’s finger, not Jesus’ finger!

    Jesus is fully man and fully God, and contraire to your erroneous statement, I am not insecure because I put my FAITH in him. Faith is described in Hebrews 11:1 as
    “confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not yet see”. Faith starts out small and grows exponentially from answered prayers and changed lives. It is the irrefutable reason why 2.1 billion Christians (1/3 of the World’s population)WILLINGLY follow him.

    Your other statement~ “Trusting your energy, strength, and instinct is all you need.” Go tell that opinion to any counselor/psychologist and see what they say. Many people lean on their own understanding, justify their own bad behaviors because it WORKS for them. Their choices are seldom made from right, fair, equitable, true or reciprocal values, but from what benefits self. They deem themselves to be their own “God” and to answer to no one but themselves. This kind of new age belief is what pushes people further into self destruction and sinful choices. The further one gets away from the truth, the harder it is for them to see themselves clearly with pure objectivity.

    Unlike you, who only wants to be the judge of himself, I will submit my actions and deeds to a Holy God. One who judges fairly and one who we all should be measuring ourselves against.

      • ROFLOL Gave him an apple tree and a snake and a pretty woman and free will choice and the little head took over . . . or so the story goes, Moses really gave the Rabbis a heavy hammer for control.

    • Daisy – Actually, i was referring to Moses and the embedding of the 10 commandments. I was raised a Christian and attended many sects of the Christian religion including one who taught that God (or Nature’s Creator) resides in each of us. Like our forefather’s who moved from Christianity to Deism, so have I and the many, many studies I have done all agree that the Master Jesus was the greatest teacher to ever visit this lowly plane. There are many paths to reach HOME and we all get there. Our infinite soul energy is part of God’s energy plasma and we are endowed with the same morals and unconditional love. When we visit this plane, if we didn’t bring enough energy to control the human animal we are immersed in, then we have a problem. Counselors and Psychologists gotta make money too. You are correct that many people make “free will” choices and are often overly influenced by the human they are immersed in. so a lot of bad choices are made. You are also correct that when you return HOME, “I will submit my actions and deeds to a Holy God.” You most surely will and your guides and Masters will turn it on you and you will deliver a far greater judgement on yourself. You will review, learn, and return for another another bout of lessons. As I said before everyone knows right from wrong and if they make incorrect free will choices they get to return here and go through some more of what some as us consider is kinda Hellish. By the way, “This kind of new age belief” is much older than Christianity, Which is the the second youngest of the five major religions in this world. If 1/3 of earth’s population are Christians, what about the other 2/3rds?? Daisy take some stock and go outside your little Christian box and realize that the basis of every religion or even just plain Deism is the “Golden Rule” and learning about Unconditional Love. All souls are endowed the same.

  13. Sam,

    You are right in saying that your belief of “You will review, learn, and return for another another bout of lessons” ~ [aka-reincarnation] is older than Christianity. You also asked the question…”what about the other 2/3rds of the world’s population who aren’t Christians?” The answer to this begins with Satan or Lucifer (his name before he was cast down to earth). Isaiah 14:12-23 & Ezekiel 28:12-19 give us an idea of who Lucifer is. Ezek 28:12-13 tells us “You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you.” Vs 15-17 says “You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence and you have sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from the among the fiery stones. You heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.”

    Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him. He still has supernatural powers and he IS the architect of other religions. He mixes “truth” with lies, for Jesus himself said that Satan is the “Father of Lies”. Satan’s kingdom is here on earth, but one day he will receive his due punishment and will be thrown in the lake of fire. Meanwhile, he is reeking havoc on the earth and its inhabitants. That is how free will comes into play. We get to choose who we align ourselves with. The other 2/3rds have chosen a path that will not lead to God, for Acts 4:12 tells us “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

    Regarding your belief in re-incarnation (we get to return again), the Bible says it ain’t so. Hebrews 9:27 reads “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

    My question for you Sam is this: If you say that Jesus was greatest teacher, then why do you reject his teachings? Why do you reject the authority of the Bible? The founding American fathers and signers of the declaration of Independence were followers of the Bible. Many were quakers; Episcopalian; Presbyterian, and Diests. The Bible (KJV) was the first reading “Primer” that every child was taught from. Many of our government words are taken directly from the Bible. “Hall of Justice” and Romans 13:1 “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established” are two such examples.

            • Billy – My very best friend (over 50 years) was a Fundamentalist Christian the last half of his life and he’d reach a point of putting mp3 headphones on because he would be so angry and would say, “you’re going to Hell”. Maybe I am, who knows, I am just a “dirty ol’ man” who practice the Law of Attraction. And i’m guessing you interpreted correctly, but i always have a back door if someone calls me on it.

    • Daisy you have no clue what Jesus said or didn’t say, it wasn’t put to papyrus until two generations after Him and has been edited, re-edited, censored, revised many times. Many of the different writings were brought together in the 2nd through 5th centuries by different religious leaders trying to integrate all the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin writings. Then regathered again to come up with and standardized as the KJV in 1614. The Old testament wasn’t even stabilized until 3rd century BCE.

      Daisy, you and I will never agree because we are at opposite ends of the Spiritual spectrum. And my belief and faith that we all came from the same plane of Unconditional Love and we all return that same plane after a lesson here on Earth is diametrically opposed to your Christian Fundamentalism of if you don’t accept Christ as your savior and he absolved you of your sins(??) then it’s across the Styx and off to the seven levels of Dante’s Inferno.

      Maybe our energies will cross we when we get HOME and we will laugh together about the difference between Religion and Spirituality. Namaste, aloha, and may all your future events be joyful and good.

      Please feel free to chastise me and we can still whine about the politics and a broken nation.

    • Daisy…As Americans, we are granted the sacred right to believe in whatever God that gives us comfort. When using the term “Founding Fathers” please remember that there is no consensus as to the actual names in this group. The term Founding Fathers was first coined by Warren G Harding in his keynote address to the Republican National Committee in 1916. When the pilgrims came to America they brought with them text books, but in 1690 the first American textbook was printed. It was called the New England Primer. This textbook was the beginning textbook for all students in America from 1690 to 1900 in public, private, semiprivate, home, parochial and all other types of schooling. No where in the United States of America’s Constitution will you find the word “God”. You err when you say signers of the Constitution were followers of the bible. The primary designer of the constitution, Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, James Madison and George Washington were also Deist. John Adams was a Unitarian. Thomas Paine, a Deist. America is a secular nation, which means to me that each citizen has the beautiful gift of believing in their personal God, believing in Reason (Deist)or not believing in anything, all without persecution.

      • Thank you Tess – Nice to know that a few remember the 1st Amendment, that in the Declaration only, “Nature’s God” and “Creator” are mentioned one time each. The Founders, those who wrote and / or input, to the Declaration, Constitution, and Amendments, may have been raised as Christian but in adulthood changed to Deism.

        Deism takes on many forms from simply creating this planet and starting life and let it find its own way – to the complete Spiritual world that the Source or Creator (maybe with help) created this and other universes (and all their components) and there are experienced Guides and Masters who have finished incarnating, and are guiding/helping those who still are incarnating.

        And as you said about the U.S.A. (at present and for the last 236 years), we are all free to practice any spirituality or religion without prejudice and as long as it doesn’t interfere with government or “We the People”‘s rights.

        “the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,”
        “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”
        should pretty well endorses the morality of our nation.

        If it weren’t for the power and control hungry, we could still be living in a relatively small government country.

          • Billy – not sure what you’re referring to – But they wanted to make it perfectly clear that folk in the “New England” were ever bit as good as the Aristocrats across the pond and they were no longer interested in giving all their spare money to those Aristocrats. Although most of them had mixed emotions about slavery, this was not the time to tackle that one. So they just pointed out without any religious connotations that all are created equal and certainly as good as Ol’ King George. They would deal with Slavery later and they never even imagined or considered there might eventually be a Women’s Suffrage issue. As King George was head of the people he was also head of the Church of England, the only authorized church in England. So Jefferson and the others wanted to make sure there was a separation of Church and State, and back then Homosexuality and Abortion were not issues. Morality wasn’t even dealt with as the Golden Rule was what EVERYONE tried to live by. To the Founders who became Deists, it was simply: their is a God of the universe and everyone could construe that as shallow or deep as they wanted to. Free Will choice and rights.

            Long winded but the short of it was exactly that: “Georgie, let my people go!!!” And laws in the very beginning, “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” – we’ll follow up with a constitution later – EOS

            • Sam, in Matthew 22:36-40 someone asked:

              Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law [10 commandments]?”

              37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

              When you dissect the verbiage, Jesus did not eliminate the commandments, but acknowledged their validity and instructed his disciples to go further, demanding a righteousness exceeding that of the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus taught that you will also be judged by your thoughts (let alone your actions)!

              The two “great commandments” teach the love of God and love of neighbor and they instruct individuals on their relationships with both. The first four commandments are how we are to behave toward God and the remaining six are how we are to behave to our fellow human beings.

            • That loving you neighbor can get you into a bit of a jam if you aren’t careful. Best to put some distance between you and your lover if you are married or have a live in GF.

            • Billy – Billy – you like to kick sand, huh? “Love your Neighbor (which includes a Creator if you believe in one)” is just another way of the universal creed of Unconditional Love. And doesn’t mean go screw your neighbor, unless all parties concerned are unanimous in that “free will” choice. And as we chatted before, after survival, that little head get so many of both sexes in trouble, sometimes overreaching survival.

            • Hey, you are the guy that suggested some thing may have been lost or added in the translation and time delay. So unless you have the instant speech on a flash drive and someone that speaks fluent Aramaic, my post stands. LOL

            • Billy – Yeah, too bad. I think any E-squared’s were hidden in the pyramids when the “vistors” boogied. some similarity was probably thought to have been memorized in Aramaic, translated to Hebrew, translated to Greek, and who know what else. It may have been “lust your friends”

            • A few years back Jimmy Carter had a mouthpiece (polish) who translated that Carter had come for lust, and it kept getting worse. They fired the guy but the next guy that got paid spoke good Polish but not a word of English. It can happen.

            • yepper – pretty sure that happened in the new and old testament (KJV) – the old testament looks very little like the Torah. Probably the Torah has conflicts too, even tho it’s all Hebrew. Just imagine a Cajun chatting with a New Yorker.

            • Sounds good but them shysters wasted no time in tilting the playing field in such a manner that any fruit the fell rolled the New England way. (Tariffs)

              Would you tell me please, Mr. Howard, why should I trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away? An elected legislature can trample a man’s rights as easily as a king can. (Patriot)

            • I think that’s what they told the American Indian when he couldn’t come up the deed to the land he live on.

            • Tess – you got it, but unfortunately you can’t get Perry to sign along with the other 50,000 and i can’t get Hickenlooper (D) to sign along with our few thousand. But it would be sweet for a huge block of the states to secede and leave the West Coast and the Left Coast to figure out how screwed up they are, and their 17 Tetrabuck deficit. We will remain the USA and the rest of ’em can become the USSA.

            • Sam:

              I don’t think states can leave and not take their portion of the debt with them.

              Also, you seem to think the coasts cost the government, but here are the top leaches–getting between $1.51 to $2.03 for each dollar they give in:

              1) New Mexico
              2) Mississippi
              3) Alaska
              4) Louisiana
              5) W. Virginia
              6) N. Dakota
              7) Alabama
              8) S. Dakota
              9) Virginia
              10) Kentucky

              Oh, well, I guess Mississippi, Alaska, Louisiana, Alabama, and Virginia are on the coast. Is that what you meant?

            • Goethe – actually we could and after doing a balance sheet of owed SSA / Medicare / gasoline and energy taxes – then the $ owed is quite so big. realize the states mentioned don’t really have the population density of the coasts as well.

            • Billy! the plain field has never been level, even before the so called Homosapien branch started. Leaders – followers,
              killers – gatherers, bigger caves – smaller caves, more rocks – less rocks, etc

            • Well it had to be better than today as the government was much smaller and here were fewer regulations but the playing field was still tilted. I mean they had to give the people some incentive to move away from all the government “services”. Yep they picked up everything they had and took their chances with the elements and Indians. A lost safer than being “serviced” by the government.

            • It was, is and always will be, “What’s in it for me”? If we are indeed all equal it must be the playing field that is tilted.

      • Tess, you are correct when you state that the Consitution does not contain the word “God” for it is an instrument that guides American law and political culture.

        I did my own reseach and found that the original states, except Rhode Island, collectively appointed 70 individuals to the Constitutional Convention, but a number did not accept or could not attend. Those who did not attend included Richard Henry Lee, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Samuel Adams and, John Hancock.

        In all, 55 delegates [“framers”] attended the Constitutional Convention sessions, but only 39 actually signed the Constitution. The delegates ranged in age from Jonathan Dayton, aged 26, to Benjamin Franklin, aged 81, who was so infirm that he had to be carried to sessions in a sedan chair.

        Of the 55 delegates that did attend, I submit their respective faiths:
        1. William Samuel Johnson ~ Anglican clergyman 2. Roger Sherman~ Christian Congregationalist 3. Richard Bassett – Methodist 4. Gunning Bedford Jr. ~ Presbyterian & Mason 5. Jacob Brown ~ Quaker 6. John Dickinson ~ Quaker 7. George Read ~ Episcopalian 8. Abraham Baldwin – Minister @ Yale University
        9. William Few ~ Reformed Protestant 10. Daniel Carroll~ Catholic 11. James McHenry ~ Christian
        12. Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer ~ unknown 13. Nathaniel Gorham – Congregationalist 14. Rufus King ~ Episcopalian 15. Nicholas Gilman Jr. ~ Congregationalist 16. John Langdon ~ Congregationalist
        17. David Brearly ~ Episcopalian 18. Jonathan Dayton ~ Episcopalian 19. William Livingston ~ Episcopalian 20. Willam Paterson ~ Presbyterian 21. Alexander Hamilton~ Episcopalian 22. Willian Blount~ Presbyterian 23. Richard Dobbs Spaight ~ unknown, (killed in a dual) 24. Hugh Williamson ~ Episcopalian 25. George Clymer ~ unknown 26. Thomas Fitzsimons ~ Roman Catholic 27. Benjamin Franklin (Raised by Puritans, baptized at Old South Meeting House) 28. Jared Ingersoll ~ Presbyterian 29. Thomas Mifflin ~ Lutheran 30. Gouverneur Morris (Author of Preamble) ~ buried in Episcopalian Church cemetery 31. Robert Morris~ Episcopalian 32. James Wilson~ Episcopalian 33. Pierce Butler~ Episcopalian 34. Charles Cotesworth [CC]Pickney~ Episcopalian 35. Charles Pickney [1st cousin of CC]~ Episcopalian 36. John Rutledge ~ Episcopalian 37. John Blair ~ Presbyterian 38. James Madison ~ Deist (fluent in Hebrew & hailed as the Father of the Constitution) 39. George Washington (President of the convention) ~ Deist & Anglican Episcopalian 40. John Hancock~ Unitarian & Puritan Congregrationist 41. Oliver Ellsworth ~ Congregrationist 42. William Houston ~ Episcopalian 43. William Pierce ~ unknown 44. Luther Martin ~ Libertarian 45. John Frances Mercer ~ 46. Elbridge Gerry ~ Episcopalian 47. Caleb Strorg ~ unknown 48. William Churchill Houston ~ Presbyterian 49. John Lansing Jr. ~ unknown 50. Robert Yates ~ unknown 51. Alexander Martin ~ son of a Presbyterain minister 52. George Mason IV ~ Anglican/Epsicopalian 53. James McClurg ~ educated at the College of William & Mary 54. Edward Randolph~ Episcopalian 55. George Wythe (teacher and mentor of Thomas Jefferson) ~ buried in St. John’s Episcopalian church

        William & Mary educated U.S. Presidents Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, and John Tyler as well as other key figures important to the development of the nation, including U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall, Speaker of the House Henry Clay, and 16 signers of the Declaration of Independence. William & Mary was founded as an Anglican institution; were required to be members of the Church of England, and professors were required to declare adherence to the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion.

        The Thirty-nine articles are the historically defining statements of doctrines of the Church of England with respect to the controversies of the English Reformation. First established in 1563, the articles served to define the doctrine of the Church of England as it related to Calvinist doctrine and Roman Catholic practice. The first article asserts “The binding authority of the Bible, the three œcumenical creeds, and the first four œcumenical councils.”

        Analysis of Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address: Lincoln included “under God” in all three copies of the address he prepared at later dates. “Under God” pointed backward and forward: back to “this nation,” which drew its breath from both political and religious sources, but also forward to a “new birth.”

        American Pledge of Allegiance: At a meeting on February 12, 1948, Lincoln’s Birthday, Louis A. Bowman (1872–1959), an attorney from Illinois led the Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution in swearing the Pledge with two words added, “under God.” He stated that the words came from Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address.

        Today, revisionists try to stomp “religion” out of our American heritage, but our currency and oaths still bear witness to a benevolent, all powerful God.

        • Daisy:

          Your weakest point is the pledge of allegiance. That silly little ditty, which was written by a flag salesman–to sell flags–is an affront to liberty, since its purpose at that time, was to intimidate and regiment new immigrants. It was an earlier time of xenophobia, and does not reflect well upon us.

          As for “under God,” that is an even weaker argument. First of all, it makes a mockery of Lincoln. The phrase “one nation indivisible” was added to the pledge as an insult to the South, having been only a few decades removed from the Civil War. Then, to have the phrase further bastardized is pathetic. Now, we were no longer “one nation indivisible,” because a new special interest group “divided” the nation with the phrase “under God.” And the reason for THAT was the paranoia of the Red Scare after World War II, in which those who want to regiment and control us got their way.

          And then, back to Lincoln, while there was disagreement as to whether Lincoln ever spoke the words “under God,” if he did, it was while speaking of the death of the old Union and the rebirth of a new one, which is dubious anyway, but he felt that odd idea needed some “higher authority” to make that one, very specific, unique point.

          But the important thing is where the phrase was placed. Lincoln did **NOT** say that we were FOUNDED “under God.” If that had been his intent, he would have put it in the FIRST paragraph, which spoke of the founding of the nation, based on LIBERTY–not God.

          And that is the point of our whole discussion.

          • Goethe, I suggest you read George Washington’s Last Farwell Address~ Washington used the majority of the letter to offer advice as a “parting friend” on what he believed were the greatest threats to the survival of the nation.

            For the sake of time, I will extract a few nuggets from it to support my assertion that our founding Fathers were religious people.

            One of the most referenced parts of Washington’s letter was his strong support of the importance of religion and morality in not only promoting private and public happiness, but also in promoting the political prosperity of the nation. He argues that religious principles promote the protection of property, reputation, and life that are the foundations of justice. Washington goes so far as to say that the nation’s morality cannot be maintained without religion and, since morality is necessary in popularly elected governments, religion is vital in maintaining the popularly elected government of the United States. He wrote:

            “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

            Washington references religion as being the foundation of public morality. He also argues that the American Government needs to ensure that “the diffusion of knowledge” throughout the United States is a primary goal, since the government has been created to enforce the opinion of the people and as a result the opinion of the people should be informed and knowledgeable.

            Washington grew tired of all the infighting and politics and relunctantly served a second term.

            In a letter he wrote to Edward Newenham on October 20, 1792 he said

            “Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”

        • The delegates … …….really outstanding people whose parents had rid the area around New England of witches all in the name of god and religion.

        • Daisy…February 8, 1693, King William III and Queen Mary II of England signed the charter for a “perpetual College of Divinity, Philosophy, Languages, and other good Arts and Sciences” to be founded in the Virginia Colony. A 17-year-old George Washington received his surveyor’s license here. Thomas Jefferson, John Tyler, and James Monroe attended the college, all as subjects of the Crown. They were not free men and had no choice of religions.

          The 39 articles were based on the work of Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury (1533-1556). Cranmer and his colleagues prepared several statements of faith during the reign of Henry VIII and we all know how Henry rewrote the bible to fit his lifestyle.

          Lincoln’s speech was given at the Consecration of the National Cemetery at Gettysburg. It was to celebrate the reburial of Union soldiers from the Gettysburg Battlefield graves to the National Cemetery. There appears to be three written versions of The Gettysburg Address. The Bliss copy,named for Colonel Alexander Bliss, Bancroft’s stepson and publisher of Autograph Leaves, is the only draft to which Lincoln affixed his signature.

          Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

          Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
          But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

          However, on the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC the words “under God” appear in the address.

          I do not know a revisionist. I think it would be very hard to find one because we are all allowed to have our own views as to how we see the world. I am a Believer but not a bible thumper. The Golden Rule is really all we need. If everyone did this, it would change the world!

          • Tess:

            Regarding the “Golden Rule,” I once went to a seminar in DC and a speaker said that the Golden Rule is the cause of a lot of the problems in the world.

            Of course, I was taken aback. How could he say such a thing? But then he went on.

            He said that the Golden Rule is based on the assumption that we KNOW what is good and right–for others. We assume they are JUST like us. Of course, they are not. So men who follow the Golden Rule give their wives manly gifts, and women give men what a woman would want. And when you are talking about foreign people, the likenesses are even less.

            So the speaker said we would all be much better off if we followed what he called “The Platinum Rule”–which is “do unto others as THEY would have you do unto THEM.”

            Of course, that requires communication and understanding. You have to KNOW what they want before you can give it to them. And in foreign affairs, it means understanding their culture and beliefs–not just trying to impose what WE want.

            And, back to religion, you do what Jesus said–you live your life the way you should, and hope that others will follow your EXAMPLE. Instead, we keep hearing people say YOU MUST BELIEVE THE WAY I DO!!!

            • Goethe…I do not know why, or who, presented the seminar you attended but I would beware of any future seminar he presented. No matter what your culture, no matter what your personal beliefs may be, no matter what your station in life, intelligent or retarded, mean-hearted or borderline, we all know one common factor. Right is right and wrong is wrong…that is the meaning of the Golden Rule. I am not asking you to believe as I do or think as I do. I just find conversation stimulating.

            • Tess:

              I think you were not understanding what I was saying. The Golden Rule is better than being selfish. But the flaw is that if you treat people the way YOU want to be treated, it assumes that you KNOW what is the way to be treated. AND it assumes that you know better than anyone else what is good for them.

              For instance, if you like chocolate, you may think the best thing you can do for someone is to give them chocolate. But what if they are allergic? Or better yet, what if they just don’t like chocolate? I know people who can’t stand chocolate. I don’t understand it, of course. But according to the Golden Rule, I should give them chocolate, because that’s what I would have them do unto me.

              Do you see what I mean?

              In order to really make someone happy, you have to know what THEY want.

              And as much as we like to think that there is absolute good, to some people, chocolate is NOT a good thing. It’s a bad thing. And in order to get along with other people–or peoples–we have to try to understand what THEY value, what THEY think and feel.

            • Goethe – you fib – you are not a comment-er, you’re a debater and love to take the abstract. Treatment of a fellow soul is not the same as giving them chocolate. I think Billy and You love to beat up on us poor people who don’t have your skills.

            • Skill……….hey if you finished high school you got me beat. My Daddy told me school was a waste of time as you can buy a brain a lot cheaper than trying to make one on your own. He retire at 41 and I beat him out by one year. Now with inflation the way it is I may be working Walmart in a couple of years but for now I can hold out.

            • Sam: When people disagree just in order to disagree, it helps to give a concrete example.

              The flaw in the Golden Rule is that it means that I know what is good for you, because I’m smarter than you. (And that is also the flaw in our foreign policy.)

              I gave the chocolate example to show that you are not necessarily in a better position to decide what is better for the other person, whether it is chocolate, or emotional support.

              How many times have you felt in distress and had someone say EXACTLY the wrong thing–which either makes you feel worse, or makes you feel that they don’t know you and don’t care? They meant well, but only said what they thought would make THEM feel better.

              Here’s an example: When I was in middle school, I had a crush on Margaret, but she dumped me. I was sitting on my bed, sadly looking at her picture. My mother came in, saw the picture, realized why I was sad–and her response was “well, she’s not very good looking, anyway.” To her, appearance was the most important thing–and she applied the Golden Rule, assuming that by pointing out the girl’s flaws, that I would feel less loss.

              Of course, it did NOT work. First, I knew the girl. I knew what she looked like. But it was not her looks that appealed to me. And so, my mother’s Golden Rule comment was irrelevant.

              WORSE–following my mother’s logic, if the girl is unattractive, and SHE rejected ME, then I must be a real loser. So I felt hopeless.

              Instead of trying to “fix” my problem with HER solution, the “platinum rule” would have had her consider MY feelings, then ask how I was doing, and if I wanted to talk about it. That would have shown concern and interest in helping–not her dismissive response that made me feel worse.

            • Gothe – A little late getting back to the http://backyardskeptics.com/wordpress/proof-that-atheists-are-more-moral-than-christians/ .

              The article did not take into account the religious Chtistians – did they just say hail Mary and cross themselves or had the even been canonized. My guess is atheists were born into a religious family and as life slid downhill had no God they felt they could trust. Behind the numbers are the real story. My guess some of those atheists got faith and at least Deism if theey had they guts to read about spirituality.

              The babies in:: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135408n exhibits kind of a Golden Rule as well as a slightly twisted Platinum Rule and as they get older and can think for themselves go back to Golden Rule

              This point on this is all my own (actually it is from the studies of Dr. Michael Newton’s books on LBL and others) hypothesis. Some groups say that life begins at conception, and well it may but it is an un-souled human animal. I believe that the soul picked out his (her) human and starts the immersion in the 3rd-trimester. the souls responsibility is to school it with the universal moral laws. They don’t really become a team for a number of years. The human animal does have genetic instincts and for all animals, flight or fight survival, power, possessions, and of course “little head” needs. The soul must be strong enough to win that battle with the animal and make the animal realize the moralities of eternity will take you further that the animal instincts will. Religion is a crutch for those who are not strong enough to think independently. Years and years of study, hypnosis, who i think are true psychics. And JHMO.

            • Sam: I am a skeptic. But I am also curious. So I am going to try “past life regression.” I am not afraid to test my beliefs, and I enjoy hearing other people’s beliefs–if they are not trying to cram them down my throat.

              There have been instances of ESP and cases of past life regressions that work.

              I like to think of a scientific answer. In this case, the brain works by using electric impulses. We’ve all heard of brain waves. What if they are like radio waves? What if they can somehow broadcast–and perhaps other people are “tuned” to that frequency? Maybe some of these images and ideas are simply entering the brain in that way. I’ve never heard anyone postulate that, but it would explain a lot.

            • Goethe – The studies and documented audio of subjects under hypnosis have been going on for sixty years or more. The most complete study and a pioneer is Dr. Michael Newton, PhD – a Psychiatrist – He initially had over 7000 patients before his first books. There are well known PhD’s who have done past life regression, but Newton’s work is LBL (Life Between Lives). The biggest objection by those that have a hard time accepting experiences under hypnosis copout it’s actually the Cortex putting out past dreams or thoughts in this lifetime.

              After studying Newton’s books i, personally, find it hard to believe that that many people ( or for me, souls) have the same basic experience but yet have individual sideband experiences. I have had two short experiences, i’m not a very good hypnosis subject.

              When you are in the LBL plane (where we are all pure energy (beats the heck out me about our mass (e=mc2))) the feelings, attitudes, and thoughts have no comparison. “Past Lives” are thoroughly explained and you can enjoy one or more past lives during LBL sessions.

              Religion does not exist, spirituality is vastly different. There are no judgments, simply acceptance.

              If you investigate and ever want to try a session, just look on the web for a “Life Between Lives” Hypnotherapist and first or second generation trained by Newton. Everyone must make their own judgement. You can also look up NDE (near death experience) and two spectacular are:

              On the subject of communication by thought – unless you’re a EE, you are very perceptive. Understanding the Electromagnetic spectrum, near the top or at the top (highest frequency / smallest wavelength) are Cosmic Rays. As lower frequency basebands (maybe 200MHz range) are bundled together and travel via fiber, then unbundled at arrival – you could think that we all have a baseband inside a cosmic baseband and we all are specifically tuned to our individual baseband. Kinda like a FM radio, TV baseband frequecy. It is possible we can tune temporarily to someone else’s baseband if we are able to detect it – if we can, then have the power to project wirelessly to someone else.

              These are all just what i conjure up. I have no data and there no instruments i know of to measure Cosmic rays.

              enjoy – care to take any of this off this url – my website is Reusser.US and i have a few of my emails listed there.

            • Sam: To answer specifically, I couldn’t find the study I was looking for, but the results were that atheists tend to be more moral than Christians because Christians think they are “forgiven”–or will be forgiven. The Reformation was all about the idea that all we have to do is believe to get the afterlife free ride (as opposed to Catholics, who demanded good works). In fact, some think that Jesus destroyed ALL sin, and that nothing they do will be held against them.

              By contrast, atheists are like no-fault drivers, who have to be doubly careful, since they have no idea what’s coming from what direction.

              Back to the babies, I disagree. They showed that little kids are selfish, and would take less, as long as they got more than the “other kid.” That is, if they got a choice between giving each two tokens, they would prefer getting just ONE token, if the other kid got NONE.

              Later in life, the kids would go so far as giving “the other kid” five tokens to their three, as opposed to both getting four. But I am a skeptic, and I wonder if that wasn’t just what they thought would “look good.” After all, they were just meaningless tokens, why not “look” magnanimous?

              Also, in the experiments, the children chose the bear with the red suit instead of gray, but did they mix and match the suits? What kid likes gray?

              In any experiment, there are many variables. So I never take any result at face value.

            • that atheists tend to be more moral than Christians

              Don’t know all that many myself the the celebrities that are atheists seem like okay people.

            • And what about mother nature, is she ever right or wrong in the way she treats all living and non-living things.

            • Tess – you are absolutely right, it is part of the creator immersed in the human that we are and even atheists, i think pass it down thru the genes or so they seem to think. Free Will causes us to sometimes make some really bad choices. In any interaction i always start out with Golden Rule – but if trust is abused, i switch to the platinum rule and that’s probably why i have to keep coming back to this miserable place – Gandhi, I’m not

            • Right is right and wrong is wrong, no,no,no,no & no.

              It is the opinion of the people at any given time and/or place.

            • Goethe – The Law of Reciprocity (Golden Rule) has nothing to do with religion. Our eternal souls are immersed in a human animal and that soul knows two thing: Law of Reciprocity and Unconditional Love. As it turns out at least 23 dominant religions have that in their written laws. Our soul is part of the Creator’s energy. Even as a an Atheist, you inherently know right from wrong. You also have free will. If your Speaker wants to take the weak road and cop out, that is reasonable. But inherently, we do know right from wrong. I am a copout like the speaker because i don’t trust the animals on this plane, so i follow the rule similar to the Platinum Rule ( as i said on a different thread to you)

            • Sam: How could you have possibly read it that way?

              Reciprocity only works if both sides are the same, and I am sure you must know that people are different, if only by looking at men and women.

              To say that “I don’t care what you want, I’m going to give you what I want to give you” is NOT the way to make friends (or allies). And that was my point–that the golden rule is flawed, because it assumes that you know better what is good for someone.

              His “platinum rule” is a step above the golden rule, because it does not assume that you know what’s good for someone else–it forces you to FIND OUT what the other person wants.

              Maybe we should introduce the “Tin Rule,” which is, “do unto others in order to get advantage.” The “golden rule” is then simple reciprocity. And the “platinum rule” is to make the extra effort to give the person what THEY need, personalized to them.

            • A hard sell unless you have live outside the USA and traveled to other countries both rich and poor. Remember the “What we say goes” line used by Bush.

          • Tess,

            You wrote “The Golden Rule is really all we need. If everyone did this, it would change the world!” Gosh, it sounds so easy doesn’t it, but as we can read from the previous posts, people can’t agree to what the “Golden Rule” really means or where it was derived from. Sam is correct when he said that it is a axiom, a belief taught in many religions.

            To the Capitalist, the “Golden Rule” might mean “He/she who has the gold makes the rules.”

            To the Muslim it might mean that he should look the other way when seeing another male beat a female into submission (especially if the action is condoned in the Quran)

            73% of all Americans identify as Christians, yet only 9% report that their faith is the most important thing to them. 45% of Americans say it is family and 17% say it is their job/career. Out of this group of Christians, how many do you think PRACTICE and uphold the Golden Rule? Most, don’t even know what is in the Bible, because many just attend church during Christmas and Easter. They aren’t called “C&E’ers” for nothing….

            Which brings me to your personal attack of calling me a “Bible Thumper”. Yes, I do cite the Bible often for two reasons. First, to direct readers to the source of my references so that if they are inclined, they can read it for themselves. Secondly, because if you call yourself a Christian (which 73% supposedly do), you should regard the Bible as the binding authority in your life. Would you call someone who upholds the Constitution and references it’s articles and amendments a “Constitution Thumper”? No, you would call them a “Patriot!”

            Goethe is also correct regarding the “Platinum Rule”. It originally came from the Carl Jung & Isabel Briggs-Myers’ Personality test. To understand oneself and others is the beginning of better relationships. An introvert needs to know why extroverts get their batteries re-charged by being around people, while an extrovert needs to realize that introverts get re-charged by being alone.

            The “Platinum Rule” is being used in many organizations to promote cultural sensitivity, in dealing with people who are different than us.

            Sam asserts that people are born with an innate ability to know right from wrong. I disagree for(the University of Minnesota Twin’s study)proved that people are products (at least 50%) of their environment. Psychologists have all agreed that “empathy” is not inherent, but it must be learnt. There is a famous poem that supports these findings:

            If a child lives with criticism,
            he learns to condemn.
            If a child lives with hostility,
            he learns to fight.
            If a child lives with ridicule,
            he learns to be shy.
            If a child lives with shame,
            he learns to feel guilty.
            If a child lives with tolerance,
            he learns to be patient.
            If a child lives with encouragement,
            he learns confidence.
            If a child lives with praise,
            he learns to appreciate.
            If a child lives with fairness,
            he learns justice.
            If a child lives with security,
            he learns to have faith.
            If a child lives with approval,
            he learns to like himself.
            If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
            He learns to find love in the world.

      • Tess,

        The following words are inscribed on a plaque at the United States Airforce Academy:

        “I lift up my eyes to the mountains—
        where does my help come from?
        My help comes from the Lord,
        the Maker of heaven and earth.”

        The plaque is facing the mountain range and its words are taken from the first two verses of Psalm 121.

        DID YOU KNOW?
        As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world’s law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view … it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments

        DID YOU KNOW?
        As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world’s law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view … it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments.

        DID YOU KNOW?
        As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

        DID YOU KNOW?
        Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:

        “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ”.

        DID YOU KNOW?
        Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

        DID YOU KNOW?
        There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

        DID YOU KNOW?
        James Madison, the fourth president, known as “The Father of Our Constitution” made the following statement:

        “We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

        How can you say we were founded as a SECULAR nation?????

        • Daisy…Secular from Latin saecularis meaning “worldly” or “temporal”. It is the state of being separate from religion, or not being exclusively allied to any particular religion. It is this principle that government institutions and their representatives remain separate from religious institutions, their beliefs, and their dignitaries. Most businesses and corporations, and governments, are secular organizations. All of the state universities in the United States are secular organizations because of the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution. The public university systems of the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Japan are also secular. Private religious universities are Baylor, Brigham Young, Boston College, Emory University,University of Notre Dame, Duquesne University, Texas Christian University, Southern Methodist University, and Yeshiva College.

          About Moses, the Supreme Court, and the ten commandments. I, too, have been to the Supreme Court Building. Awesome but questionable. The Decalogue’s presence in that courtroom is puzzling because this is the same Court that has shown repeated hostility to the Ten Commandments being displayed in other courtrooms and public buildings. Moses was a Jew and he subscribed to that faith. The Court excused its own Ten Commandments display saying it is “in the company of 17 other lawgivers, most of them secular figures.”

          I did know Congress had paid chaplains. The current House Chaplain is Father Patrick J. Conroy, the first Jesuit priest to hold the position. Chaplains are elected as individuals and not as representatives of any religious community, body, or organization. Rear Admiral Barry C. Black (retired),is the first African-American to serve as the Chaplain for the United States Senate. The newly elected, 113th Congress includes the first Buddhist to serve in the Senate, the first Hindu to serve in either chamber and the first member of Congress to describe her religion as “none”.

          Patrick Henry was an attorney, planter and politician, also known as a great orator. He is regarded as one of the most influential champions of Republicanism. He opposed the United States Constitution, fearing that it endangered States Rights.

          The quote you attribute to James Madison comes from the book Myth of Separation by David Barton. No such quote has ever been found among any of James Madison’s writings. None of the biographers of Madison, past or present have ever run across such a quote, and most if not all would love to know where this false quote originated.

          I have not seen the plaque at The Air Force Academy but I noticed you said it was from the Psalms. It is important to recognize that the psalms are not doctrinal statements, creeds, or history but that they are both poetry and prayer.


          • Tess,

            I believe that the Federal court shows hostility toward other government buildings displaying the Ten Commandments for a couple of reasons.

            1) To remain politically correct/show separation of Church/State, they MUST allow other religions their representation. One such protest went too far last year in Santa Monica where the government has now prohibited groups from setting up Nativity scenes in Palisades Park. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/santa-monica-nativity-scene_n_1595031.html

            2) The Jewish community states that the Commandments are out of order and not representative of the teachings in the Torah.

            At the moment many forces are warring against the Christian church. In England, and much of the Western world, the two main opponents are militant Islam and militant secularism. Both are seeking to crush the life out of Christianity and politically correct citizens are complacent about it. England has come close to loosing her national heritage (with the insidous implementation of Sharia law and the “No-go” zones increasing). America is only a few years behind…..

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/uk_1.shtml is an interesting site to understand the religious battles that took place in England.

  14. OK.

    Here’s an idea. It is no secret that Joe Biden is up on foreign affairs and enjoys meeting with foreign leaders.

    How about if Obama names Biden to Secretary of State. That would make him unavailable to perform the office of President of the Senate, so he would have to resign the vice presidency.

    Then, Obama could name Hillary as vice president. After all, Nixon named Ford, and Ford named Rockefeller, so there is precedent, and Hillary would have no problem being confirmed.

    It would give Hillary a job (so she wouldn’t be unemployed, as Romney has been for years). It would also get Biden out of the country. . . .

  15. Seems rather hypocritical when you consider how many past Presidents have had affairs. It smells fishy to me. I think they are hiding something.

  16. Secession Is an American Principle!(Ron Paul states it logically in the 4 minute video shown at the end)!

    It is not a question of IF, but WHEN, a State will secede!
    And the first viable State to secede will garner the most benefits (with the next States getting a bit less).

    The benefits of Secession are:

    1) The First State (that has a balanced budget) — let us say it’s Texas — will attract all freedom loving Americans. We will move lock-stock-and-barrel in the Millions to Texas in order to escape the impending Doom that is the Welfare-and-Military Tyranny that’s now known as the Washing DC Federal Government.
    Meaning, Texas, will have an influx of Liberty minded people, the REAL Americans, that are the producers, and not the takers.

    2) All GUN-TOTING Federal Agencies will cease to exist in Texas (and that will apply to all other States that eventually secede, equally)!

    No more of these PERNICIOUS Creations of a Government that IS NOW Against the People (and not For the People and Of the People, as our Original Constitution decreed)!

    The alphabet soup of these Federal Agencies was created not to protect us, We The People, but to belittle us, to condition us to obedience, to take away our rights and our individual sovereignty over body soul and private property, to rob us of our income, to give us Promissory Paper Notes and beguile us that that is real money, to tax just about anything and all that we earn or purchase, to take money away even when we are dead (picking a dead man’s pockets Tax), to pay tax on our private property that we own and have developed and improved, to force people without children to pay School Tax, to tell us that to travel is not a right but a “privilege” (drivers license “laws”), to tag us like cattle with a Number (SSN), to intrude so far into our private lives and homes as to tell us how much water we can use to flush down our poop in our toilets, to invade our sanctity as sovereign and free individuals to perpetrate invasive bodily searches at airports, to…and the sad list of our subjugation by GUN TOTING FEDERAL AGENTS goes on, and on, and on….

    Any State that secedes will be rid IMMEDIATELY of ALL these anti-American PERNICIOUS Federal Organizations!

    Here is MSN latest report:

    The Texas petition says the United States is suffering from economic troubles stemming from the federal government’s failure to reform spending. It also complains of alleged rights abuses committed by agencies like the Transportation Security Administration.

    “Given that the state of Texas maintains a balanced budget and is the 15th largest economy in the world, it is practically feasible for Texas to withdraw from the union,” it said.

    Spread this 4 minute video like WILDFIRE!


    List of some Federal Agencies (most carry guns to enforce their “authority”)!

    The Federal Agency Names listed below can be selected on line 17 of any issue page on the LD-2DS form.

    – A –

    Administration for Children & Families (ACF)

    Administration on Aging

    Advisory Council on Historic Preservation (ACHP)

    African Development Foundation

    Agency for Health Care Policy & Research

    Agency for Toxic Substances & Disease Registry

    Agriculture, Dept of (USDA)

    Air Force, Dept of

    Alcohol & Tobacco Tax & Trade Bureau (TTB)

    Alternative Agr Research & Commercialization Center

    American Battle Monuments Comm

    AMTRAK – Natl Railroad Passenger Corporation

    Appalachian Regional Comm

    Architect of the Capitol (AOC)

    Architectural & Transportation Barriers Compliance Board

    Army, Dept of (Corps of Engineers)

    Army, Dept of (Other)

    – B –

    Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms (ATF)

    Bureau of Arms Control

    Bureau of Economic Analysis

    Bureau of Engraving & Printing

    Bureau of Export Administration

    Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA)

    Bureau of Justice Assistance

    Bureau of Justice Statistics

    Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS)

    Bureau of Land Management (BLM)

    Bureau of Reclamation

    Bureau of the Public Debt

    Bureau of Transportation Statistics

    – C –

    Centers For Disease Control & Prevention (CDC)

    Centers For Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS)

    Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)

    Commerce, Dept of (DOC)

    Commodity Futures Trading Comm (CFTC),

    Congressional Budget Office (CBO)

    Consumer Product Safety Comm (CPSC)

    Corporation for Natl & Community Service

    Corporation for Public Broadcasting

    Corrections Program Office

    Council of Economic Advisers (CEA)

    Council on Environmental Quality (CEQ)

    – D –

    Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)

    Defense Business Transformation Agency (BTA)

    Defense Commissary Agency

    Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA)

    Defense Department Field Activities

    Defense Finance & Accounting Agency (DFAS)

    Defense Information Systems Agency

    Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)

    Defense Investigative Service (DIS)

    Defense Legal Services Agency

    Defense Logistics Agency

    Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board

    Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA)

    Defense Security Services

    Defense Special Weapons Agency

    Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA)

    Defense, Dept of (DOD)

    Director of National Intelligence (ODNI)

    Drug Court Program Office

    Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)

    – E –

    Economic Development Administration

    Education, Dept of

    Election Assistance Comm (EAC)

    Employment & Training Administration

    Employment Standards Administration

    Energy, Dept of

    Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)

    Equal Employment Opportunity Comm (EEOC)

    Executive Office of the President (EOP)

    Export-Import Bank of the United States (EXIM Bank)

    – F –

    Farm Credit Administration

    Federal Accounting Standards Advisory Board (FASAB)

    Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)

    Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)

    Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP)

    Federal Communications Comm (FCC)

    Federal Deposit Insurance Comm (FDIC)

    Federal Election Comm (FEC)

    Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)

    Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC)

    Federal Highway Administration (FHA)

    Federal Housing Finance Board (FHFB)

    Federal Labor Relations Authority (FLRA)

    Federal Law Enforcement Training Center

    Federal Management Service

    Federal Maritime Comm

    Federal Mediation & Conciliation Service

    Federal Mine Safety Health Review Comm (FMSHRC)

    Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

    Federal Railroad Administration

    Federal Reserve System

    Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board

    Federal Trade Comm (FTC)

    Federal Transit Administration (FTA)

    Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN)

    Financial Management Service (FMS)

    Food & Drug Administration (FDA)

    – G –

    General Services Administration (GSA)

    Ginnie Mae

    Government Accountability Office (GAO)

    Government Printing Office (GPO)

    – H –

    Health & Human Services, Dept of (HHS)

    Health Resources & Services Administration (HRSA)

    Homeland Security, Dept of (DHS)

    House of Representatives

    Housing & Urban Development, Dept of (HUD)

    – I –

    Indian Health Service

    Institute of Museum and Library Services (IMLS)

    Inter-American Foundation

    Interior, Dept of (DOI)

    Internal Revenue Service (IRS)

    Intl Trade Administration (ITA)

    – J –

    Job Corp

    Joint Chiefs of Staff

    Joint Service Schools

    Justice, Dept of (DOJ)

    – L –

    Labor, Dept of (DOL)

    Legal Services Corporation

    Library of Congress (LOC)

    – M –

    Marine Mammal Comm

    Maritime Administration (MARAD)

    Medicare Payment Advisory Comm (MedPAC)

    Merit Systems Protection Board

    Mine Safety & Health Administration (MSHA)

    Mine Safety & Health Review Comm

    Minerals Management Service

    Minority Business Development Agency

    – N –

    Natl Aeronautics & Space Administration (NASA)

    Natl Archives & Records Administration (NARA)

    Natl Bioethics Advisory Comm

    Natl Capital Planning Comm (NCPC)

    Natl Comm Libraries & Information Science (NCLS)

    Natl Council on Disability

    Natl Credit Union Administration (NCUA)

    Natl Economic Council (NEC)

    Natl Endowment for the Arts

    Natl Endowment for the Humanities

    Natl Foundation on the Arts & Humanities

    Natl Geospatial Intelligence Agency

    Natl Guard

    Natl Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

    Natl Indian Gaming Comm

    Natl Institute of Justice

    Natl Institute of Mental Health (NIMH)

    Natl Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST)

    Natl Institute on Alcohol Abuse & Alcoholism (NIAA)

    Natl Institutes of Health (NIH)

    Natl Labor Relations Board (NLRB),

    Natl Mediation Board

    Natl Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)

    Natl Park Service (NPS)

    Natl Science Foundation (NSF)

    Natl Security Agency (NSA)

    Natl Security Council (NSC)

    Natl Technical Information Service

    Natl Telecomm & Info Administration (NTIA)

    Natl Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)

    Navy, Dept of

    Nuclear Regulatory Comm (NRC)

    – O –

    Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA)

    Occupational Safety & Health Review Comm

    Office for Victims of Crime

    Office of Administration

    Office of Faith-Based & Community Initiatives

    Office of Government Ethics (OGE)

    Office of Justice Program

    Office of Juvenile Justice & Delinquency Prevention

    Office of Management & Budget (OMB)

    Office of Natl AIDS Policy

    Office of Natl Drug Control Policy (NDCP)

    Office of Personnel Management (OPM)

    Office of Policy Development

    Office of Science & Technology Policy (OSTP)

    Office of Special Counsel

    Office of Surface Mining Reclamation & Enforcement

    Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC)

    Office of the Secretary of Defense

    Office of the Vice President of the United States

    Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS)

    On-Site Inspection Agency

    Overseas Private Investment Corp (OPIC)

    – P –

    Panama Canal Comm

    Patent & Trademark Office (PTO)

    Peace Corps

    Pension & Welfare Benefits Administration

    Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC)

    Pentagon Force Protection Agency

    Pipeline & Hazardous Materials Safety Administration

    Postal Rate Comm

    Postal Regulatory Comm

    President of the U.S.

    Program Support Center

    – R –

    Railroad Retirement Board

    Research & Innovative Technology Administration

    Risk Management Agency

    – S –

    Securities & Exchange Comm (SEC)

    Selective Service System


    Small Business Administration (SBA)

    Smithsonian Institution

    Social Security Administration (SSA)

    St. Lawrence Seaway Development Corporation

    State Justice Institute

    State, Dept of (DOS)

    Substance Abuse & Mental Health Srv Admin (SAMHSA)

    Surface Transportation Board (STB)

    – T –

    Technology Administration

    Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)

    Trade & Development Agency (TDA)

    Transportation Security Administration (TSA)

    Transportation, Dept of (DOT)

    Treasury, Dept of

    – U –

    U.S. Access Board – Architectural & Transportation Barriers Compliance Board

    U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID)

    U.S. Arms Control & Disarmament Agency

    U.S. Botanic Garden

    U.S. Chemical Safety & Hazard Investigation Board

    U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS)

    U.S. Coast Guard (USCG)

    U.S. Comm of Fine Arts

    U.S. Comm on Civil

    U.S. Comm on International Religious Freedom

    U.S. Copyright Office

    U.S. Customs & Border Protection

    U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS)

    U.S. Forest Service

    U.S. Geological Survey (USGS)

    U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE)

    U.S. Information Agency (USIA)

    U.S. Institute of Peace

    U.S. International Development Cooperation Agency

    U.S. International Trade Comm (ITC)

    U.S. Marines

    U.S. Marshals Service

    U.S. Mint

    U.S. Natl Central Bureau – Intl Criminal Police Org

    U.S. Postal Service (USPS)

    U.S. Secret Service

    U.S. Trade Representative (USTR)

    USA Freedom Corps

    – V –

    Veterans Affairs, Dept of (VA)

    Veterans Employment & Training Service

    Vice President of the U.S.

    Violence Against Women Program

    Voice of America

    – W –

    White House Office

  17. I like to be a bit of a contrarian. That is, I like to think, what if the opposite of the taken-for-granted were to happen?

    After all the kerfuffle about Petraeus is behind us, we should realize that he was a powerful man, in a stressful situation, put together with a young and very attractive woman, and after he fell to physical temptation, he ENDED the affair.

    All that happened before anyone knew, and as far as we know, nothing negative happened, except his resignation.

    So, that being said, it seems to me that he is perfectly available to be Secretary of State, and I think his experience puts him in an excellent position to do the job.

  18. I don’t believe all the Petraeus kerfuddle is over. It will linger in jokes and innuendoes for years. I like to think I am open minded and try to be objective, however, in martial cheating affairs I have a narrow Texas outlook. Leave the decision up to Holly Petraeus. If she feels Petraeus is still good enough for her and wants to continue on with their marriage then it’s no one else’s business.

    • With a $220,000 pension it’s going to be a lot of people’s business. Holly get 1/2 right off the bat and those $100,000 an hour to read a speech that someone else wroth may be hard to come by now.

    • Ron Paul: You’re Not FREE if you Can’t Secede from an Oppressive Government

      “In a free country, governments derive their power from the consent of the governed. When the people have very clearly withdrawn their consent for a law, the discussion should be over. If the Feds refuse to accept that and continue to run roughshod over the people, at what point do we acknowledge that that is not freedom anymore? At what point should the people dissolve the political bands which have connected them with an increasingly tyrannical and oppressive federal government? And if people or states are not free to leave the United States as a last resort, can they really think of themselves as free?”

      Spread this 4 minute message like wildfire!


      My Take:

      The District of Columbia (Washington, DC) — where the White House and all Federal Governmental Agencies reside — have passed the point by their anti-American-anti-Constitution ACTIVITIES that they have FORFEITED THE RIGHT to be called the USA. De facto, THEY have already SECEDED from the Union by constitutional default, and any State that wants to secede from THEM is a State that wants to RETURN BACK to the original CONSTITUTIONAL USA!

    • *I Dreamt of Free America* (a friend of mine that escaped the Soviet Block in 1968 asked me to post this for him):

      “I lived in a Communist Country that was totalitarian. In the morning I woke up to TV news that told me how great our Socialist Government was, then read the same in their newspapers, while waiting in line for bread. I was then 16 years old.

      My parents went to work before the break of dawn, and came home exhausted each day after 7pm. The meager dinners we had were the best of times — my parents taught me not to believe the lies the communists told, but to dream that there is a truly FREE COUNTRY called America, where we’ll all try to escape to someday!

      School I hated — it was six days a week back then — and all they taught us was how great our socialist leaders were, and how wonderful the world would be once Communism is achieved.

      Every other Sunday, my parents and I (just like all our neighbors) had to attend in a basement the local Commissar’s mandatory gathering. Here, all had to pledge allegiance to our Socialist Republic, and have us tell on neighbors and friends who might be an Enemy of the State. The Commissar always made a patriotic call that ANY CHILDREN, that have seen or heard, their parents say something against the State MUST report them, since that is how our country would be saved from internal foes.

      I’m sadden to recall that there were a few children that reported their own parents (these children did get an extra allowance of candy, AND THE RARE Chocolate bar…and we envied them, since Chocolate was an unheard of luxury back then), but next time we never saw their parents….

      But I loved my parents and respected them — and no Chocolate bar could ever replace them.

      We did escape in 1968 — and came to Freedom, the Greatest Country in the World back then, the USA!

      My parents died in the 1980’s, and I no longer mourn them — because I’m happy they did not live to see what this nation has become!”

      “Right now our USA is no different than the communist country I escaped from over 40 years ago!

      Please, do not let my tale die with me.”

  19. Surfisher…Here is Supreme Court Justice Antonio Scalia’s reply when asked about a State’s right to secede:”I am afraid I cannot be of much help with your problem, principally because I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.”

    Ron Paul speaks of an oppressive and tyrannical Federal government but he gave not one example about which he spoke. What are the anti-American-anti-Constitution ACTIVITIES that you imply? You say people or states are not free to leave. The state leaving is questionable but you are free to go to an airport and buy a ticket to whereever.

    • Tess:

      It was my opinion, as well, that for better or worse, the original purpose of the Civil War was to preserve the Union, but I don’t believe that “right makes right,” and I don’t think the war settled the question of secession.

      In fact, since the southern states DID see themselves as separate, complete with separate, legitimate, and functioning governments–and a new CONSTITUTION. It has been my contention that whether a state is part of the Union is based on its own constitution, and if the people of any state were to change its constitution to change it’s identity as a separate unit of government, I don’t see how the federal government could object–except to say that the state constitution disagrees with the federal constitution, but while there is description of forming the more perfect union, I don’t think it says that the nation is “indivisible.” Lincoln just said that, and he had his own reason to see it that way.

      Scalia obviously did not give this much thought, and insulted the questioner by blowing it off.

      I see the war as a secession and then a war of territory. By defeating the Confederacy, the norther states merely vanquished a separate opponent, and upon the victory, simply ANNEXED those territories as new, federal lands. And since the federal government did not dissolve those state lines, they are not “federal” lands, and therefore, maintain their status as commonwealths.

      I don’t think any state could fight the pressure that would come down on it, but if the state COULD get its citizens to change its constitution, I think that would be a fait accompli.

    • Tess – check out the E.O.s this POTUS has installed that are un-constitutional and remain unchallenged by a Judicial or Legislative Branch who either desire Totalitarism or are too afraid of the Media and this POTUS.

      I wonder what Scalia’s reply would be to POTUS declaring Martial Law without anyone’s approval. And he can do that right now via his existing E.O.s should he decide that. In addition take over all personal and business holdings.

      If you have ever studied or vetted Obama, his own words say we don’t need to be the most powerful nation in the world. He hates Colonialism and believe the US is a Colonialist.

      By the way – the W.H. media had to get approval to publish when coming out of W.H. media sessions.

  20. Sam…The President of the United States can’t reform the nation’s entire economy and war policy through a single executive order. That’s not how the system works. This order barely modifies the language of President Clinton’s “National Defense Industrial Resource notion direct your anger at Harry Truman. The order is also almost identical to executive orders issued by administrations since the Cold War Days with Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower, 2000 with George W. Bush. Allowing the president to direct private sector business decisions, has been on the books since the Defense Production Act of 1950. “If a foreign entity invaded the United States attempting to overrun the country then yes, the president could declare martial law by executive order,” says Karl Manheim, professor of law at Loyola Law School Los Angeles. “Otherwise, the president cannot simply defy Congress and declare martial law on his own.”

    I have read the books written by Barack Obama. I have followed his career actions as president. By vetted do you mean have I listened to the idiosyncrasies of Donald Trump or the Birther melange of Dinish D’Souza. Yes, and am repulsed by them. Maybe we can find common ground on government policies on targeted killing of American terror suspects, military detention, and expansion of drone warfare.

    • Tess – actually that is exactly what POTUS can do. This National Emergency EO superseding all others can do whatever POTUS deems appropriate without any other agencies or branch of governments approval. plus with the establishment of the DHS, he has that agency as the enforcer. Your Loyola prof is full of crap – Obama requires no else’s approval to declare a state of emergency elevating to martial law.

      Wake up and smell the fecal matter around your beloved president.

      And by no way is he a natural born citizen by most definitions – even if he was born in HI. His Father was a Kenyan under those circumstances. Most definitions say BOTH parents. And If you liberals let that by, He never renounced his Indonesian citizenship and pledged his allegiance to the USA upon his return from Indonesia – why do you think he won’t release his scholastic records. he was enrolled as a foreign student everywhere. And yes he was an Indonesian citizen even tho young he had no choice or he would not been allowed to stay. As his mother had to take Indonesian citizenship as well.

      The fact he is a closet Sunni Muslim doesn’t really help matters.

      I doubt seriously you have read his two books or actually viewed D’Sousza’s “2016”. You are a typical liberal who reads only left leaning media.

      Actually Tess, we couldn’t agree on the terror issues either, because i’m a veteran and a warmonger. As far as i am concerned, on 9/11/01 the Muslim world declared war on the US. and if it was just a few, the Muslim community should have killed their own for making a mistake. Otherwise . . . We did make a mistake for losing troops by going into Iraq and Afghan, we should established superiority and made it flat, black & glow in the dark. A better solution now is to remove our troops and load up the Muslim countries with EMPs. No one gets killed and they can go back to living in the previous centuries and leave us alone.

      But that would oppress your precious president.

  21. Very cynical, Sam, and very untrue. You have no idea what I read or what I view. You have no idea if I even have a party affiliation. Character assassination, without proof, is a very bad trait. You have the undeniable right to say you are a warmonger, to load up the Muslim countries with EMP’s, or make another county “flat, black, and glow”. But you fabricate when you say Obama was enrolled as a foreign student everywhere. His mother did not take Indonesian citizen. You need to show factual copies to prove such slanderous remarks. Several members of my family are (were) veterans. I salute them, and you, for service to our country.

    Congressional Research Service report states: The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term “natural born” citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship “by birth” or “at birth”, either by being born “in” the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship “at birth”.

    • Tess, when Sam babbles like that, you just have to change the subject. There’s no way to change his mind.

      As to the merits. . .
      As “commander in chief,” the president should be able to declare martial law whenever and wherever. We have had instances of martial law in cases of natural emergency, and no one has batted an eye.

      It would be an interesting discussion as to how it would go down if a president did try to declare nationwide martial law. The Congress could impeach the President, but the military doesn’t work for the Congress, so if the rest of the administrative branch backed him up, what could they do?

      Someone could appeal to the Supreme Court, but on what grounds?

      So it’s an interesting discussion to waste time, but Martial Law is as unlikely as having states secede, or Ron Paul become Secretary of State (although I’d like to see that!).

      Just ignore the birther blather. Once the Chief Justice swears in a ham sandwich, that ham sandwich is president, and even if there were some technicality, it wouldn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

      The whole argument is based on one clause, but if you follow it to its logical conclusion, NO president after Zachary Taylor has been legal. Blather.

      Likewise the “muslim” nonsense. Blather. (Did you know that Romney is really a leather baseball Mitt??)

      Pick your battles and ignore things that are so nutty that they look like a Planter’s Peanut Bar®.

        • Sam:

          Yeah. But I’m not so sure. The military’s job is to follow orders, and they ultimately get those orders from the president. I think the military command would stay in line.

          If they were to disobey, I think it would be from the ground, up, as it was at the collapse of the Soviet Union. The ground troops disobeyed orders and refused to fire on unarmed citizens. But even then, the situation was unique, since the legitimacy of the hardliners was in question.

          I, too, would like to see the dismantling of Bush’s Ministry of Fatherland Security. But too many people think everybody is out to get us.

          Also, I think you may be a little out of touch with today’s military. Overwhelmingly, military political contributions went to Ron Paul, because he pledged to bring them home and end foreign adventurism. I was shocked to see that military people would stand up to the NeoCons that way. (You don’t have to be an “isolationist” to be against wars of imperialism.)

          And the last time I looked, second behind Ron Paul was Barack Obama in campaign contributions.

          As for Romney, I am no longer against him, but when I was against him, it was mostly to counter his ridiculous claims. I would not fantasize about him destroying the country or constitution. Ya gotta getta grip, guy.

          • Goethe – I disagree in several areas.

            The military – oath of enlistment specifically states obey the orders of POTUS/CinC, officer’s oath is of Office not POTUS/CinC. Any revolt of the Military would have to be drawn out by the Joint Chief’s of Staff – Chain of command is CinC – SecDef – Chairman J.O.C. And they would never attempt it unless secretly blessed by Congress to remove an administration and let someone from Congress take over. Relief of Command is always done by the XO (next junior in command).

            Like all citizens, we Pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the Untied States of America.
            And to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That flag, contrary to your disbelief in it, in one symbol, represents everything that is in our Pledge. And that is why we, the military, treat it with such reverence.

            As I said before I don’t think the military would fire on the citizens we signed up to protect – That’s why BO has taken Bush’s DHS, Increased it’s power several fold, to be his private civilian army with no morals. They know they will put us in camps.

            Goethe – i think you should do so more research. I’m guessing your donation stats come from an article written Feb 2012, even before the Pub primary. In addition Many military don’t study theology and don’t realize that Mormons believe in Christ and 80% of the military are Christian and ~95% of older generation active and retired are Christian. Most military are not terribly fond of any Muslim, except small children.

            The Military would like to have most at home in a training status and have bases only in countries that are friends and business partners. But in following SecDef, JOC and on down the line believes and wants to stop countries or organizations that are perceived to be a threat to our Economics or ideologies. Not to be confused with Imperialism (a word we have come to hate) or your so called Adventurism. We are not NeoCons in the strict sense of the word but we don’t believe that a NeoCon nation should aggress where it is not wanted. As for Iraq, Shi’a welcomed us but not Sunni. And ‘Nam, S.’Nam wanted us not the french or N.’Nam

            Hence 9 mos ago, it would be likely Paul would get contributions – he was my candidate back then –

            In Feb Most of the military thought Iraq military was coming home (BO said ending the war) not moving them all over to Afghan. Do some more research on what most military think of BO.

            I am in tune with my military. They pay me and send me literature. I help a friend who counsels PTSD, i correspond with close to 50 retired and active (we retired can be a little more opinionated but we are still subject to the UCMJ), i belong to MOAA, AUSN, Rocky Mountain Navy, and VFW 1. I also read Military.com and have RSS for Navy Times and Army Times.

            Try again Goethe telling me what the Military Thinks

            • Sam:

              You like to disagree even when you agree. Your first paragraph is exactly what I was saying.

              What do you mean, “like all citizens, we pledge allegiance to the flag.” I don’t pledge allegiance to a flag, and I find the pledge offensive. It has nothing to do with the Constitution, and has no legal status what-so-ever, except as groups have decided for their own purposes.

              If Mormons are Christians, then so are Muslims, since they both recognize Jesus–and both interpret Him in ways that are totally inconsistent with mainstream Christianity.

              Re: Iraq. Exactly, you earlier said that Sunnis welcomed us into Iraq, and while the Shia did “welcome” us, they would have also “welcomed” space monsters or hookers with bazookas. They had no STANDING to “invite” anyone, since they had no power, andno real organization. And rationalizing an invastion of a sovereign country based on what you THINK SOME of their people think, is inviting invasion of the U.S. since the kind of stuff you rant about is so anti-government as to be anti-American.

              As for “what the military thinks,” if you’re basing it on what your buddies send you, you’re not seeing the whole picture.

              According to BUSINESSWEEK:

              Obama has received $536,414 from such donors, compared with Romney’s $287,435, according to research by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics in Washington. The group’s study, which includes data through August, looked at donations from individuals who listed their employment as the Defense Department or one of the branches of the military.

              Defense Department personnel led the list, giving $176,121 to Obama and $71,043 to Romney. Army personnel came in next with $165,646 for Obama and $87,218 for Romney.

              Earlier in the election cycle, military personnel donations were overwhelmingly tilted toward Republican hopeful Ron Paul, who called for less government and opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, until Obama began to overtake him in March, the Center for Responsive Politics found.


              I don’t have a military background, but I think it’s clear that the military would like a chickenhawk like Romney less than the general public. His dad said the military “brainwashed” him when he toured Vietnam in 1968, so you can hardly blame Willard for sneaking out of the draft, but during the campaign, he was totally irresponsible in his suggestions that we throw the military into combat all over the world.

              As a note, McCain did slightly outraise Obama in 2008. So I think it’s clear tht they were just not fond of the chickenhawk.

            • Goethe – this is going nowhere as .

              I said earlier “we are giving back to the Sunni’s” Because i have know doubt through whatever means Sunni’s will take over Iraq again when the last of our troops have left Iraq and Afghan Obama has already publicly he will no long fight the al Qaeda when we leave the Mid-East. Yes at the beginning of Iraq the Shi’a would have taken anyone’s help.

              You go with who you read (Mother Jones is liberal and Business Week is close to Center) and what they SUPPOSE and i’ll go with who i know and discuss these items, the reading of Military.com / Army & Navy news, and the people and literature in the Orgs i belong to.

            • Sam:

              First of all, I have no idea why you are making a big deal as to who runs Iraq. Iran is shi’ite and they are not going to be our pals anytime soon. And as soon as we toppled Saddam, we handed over the influence in Iraq to Iran.

              Second, the Sunni only held power–and held the country together–only through force. I don’t see how you propose that less than 1/3 of the population is going to somehow take power back from the 2/3–who have control of the military and the administration–and the backing of Iran.

              Third, regardless of whoever is in charge in Iraq, they are never going to be our ally. We can lose a lot of lives changing their government, but their attitude toward us is not going to change, especially after our condescending control of their country for so many years. It was a senseless war without benefit.

              Fourth, we have no “friends.” People in other countries only “like” us if they think we’re going to fight their battles for them–and we love to meddle. But we have no reason to put the Sunnis back in power, so I don’t see how you propose they’ll get there.

              And fifth, you seem to think they are simpltons. Even within their own groups, there are disagreements. Before we went in, Saddam was bin Laden’s worst enemy, because Saddam had a secular government, even though it was restricted to Sunnis. Bin Laden called for Saddam’s overthrow many times, including just before our invasion and occupation.

              And regarding publications, I don’t read any of them regularly. I Google for specific information, so when I wanted to find out about Romney’s twisted logic, I went to the source–the tape at Mother Jones. To my knowledge, I have never quoted them before or since. But when someone has original source information, that IS the place to go. We saw Willard’s face saying the words, so the source doesn’t matter.

              Likewise with the statistics about military contributions favoring Obama. It wasn’t fluff. It was exact numbers. And the source was BusinessWeek, whose job IS numbers. And if a business publication is going to report that Obama got more money than Willard, how can you pussibly doubt that?

              Regardless of what you want to think, there are times when you need to acknowledge facts, or else, why should anyone listen to anything you say?

            • Goethe –

              Iraq, to me, no big deal who runs it as long as we are outta there. But i believe the Shias have no single, country wide Imam to drive them and are mentally weaker than Iraqi Sunni’s. So when we are completely gone they will forcibly take control again. They almost did while we were there in force. Similar to S.’Nam. No Muslim is a simpleton, contrary. Very complex and will even lie to outside the faith if is the interest of furthering Allah. The whole of Islam has but one goal – the world be Islam for Allah.

              I would like the US completely out of the Muslim Mid-East and all their affairs and stay out of our affairs. And a warning that we carry a very big stick, know how to use it, and never again put boots on the ground over there.

              I didn’t mean to question your campaign donation numbers which were quite real, I’m sure. But those numbers were back in February. The political landscape has been very dynamic since then. Plus the religion thing with both Romney and BO. Regardless of donations, Mil/Aero, I would expect, I only know military people i talk with and things I read in mil media (which must be very, very careful what they say and how they position it). As Retireds, we can can object some – but not cross certain lines.

              I have no idea what lies Romney has told. Every time BO or MSM has called him a liar, when centrist go factcheck it Dems have to backpeddle.

              You are right – The US has no real friends. The closest is probably Australia – because of the battle of the Coral Sea. But we do have countries that are business associates and trade partners. That’s what i meant.

              I mentioned earlier, this isn’t going anywhere, so i’ll watch for your response and let it all go.

    • Tess – I apologize for assuming about you, that was ignorant of me. Plus it’s none of my business.

      I retract nothing about Obama and his mother either way concerning adoption and citizenship because there is no solid proof either way. There are rulings and assumptions about the 55 member committee in writing the Constitution and what they meant by a “natural born citizen”. Their biggest concern was someone not a citizen of the US would not cloud their way into the POTUS and create conflict.

      Yes Tess, I am a very big cynic. Anyone who pays $1M to hide their background and uses false documents but has his party and the media scream for the opponent to show all his background usually has something to hide.

      Thank you for the veteran recognition – I did not state it asking for recognition, i mentioned it as a major influence in my feelings. A great many of career veterans like myself have similar feelings. Maybe your veteran family doesn’t, but almost every career vet i know from all services feel the way i do. Walk in to a VFW or even an American Legion and say, “I love Obama!”

      Goethe is correct that i am as immovable as he is and our logic’s conflict. And i will ride a horse aways until i see it is not worth the effort to continue. And i feel as strongly against Obama as Goethe does against Romney. And Goethe can’t absolutely prove BO isn’t Sunni Muslim as i can’t prove he is other than actions on BO’s part.

      Goethe – i doubt he could convince the military to turn on the people we swore to protect – but the DHS is his own private “army”. And that is who will take our guns when Obama takes away our 2nd Amendment.

      Tess – i apologize again for my belligerent behavior towards you. While i was said once to be an Officer and a Gentleman, i come from a world alien to that and often let my alligator mouth over run my canary butt.

      And it’s time to take the Clydesdale (I’m 265 & 6′) to the barn, cool him off and brush him down regarding this subject.

        • Billy – no way will the MainStreamMedia will allow BO to be impeached, even over Benghazi – or send illegal Pedro back. So both stay! We need legal Pedro to keep our population rate over 2.1

            • Mine has to see three satellites and i don’t have a signal peaking meter for that baseband, so had DirecTV come out and do it and charged back to contractor. Pedro and Larry spent over an hour before they admitted failure and couldn’t DirecTV for 2 days. Couldn’t see / record “Person of Interest” – GRRR

            • I just got one dish and no way to record. As for the P O I show, John DeLorean work on such a computer. Don’t know how far it got but a few of the prototypes did catch a couple of dead beat dads.

            • Billy – Not sure we are talking same “Person Of Interest” – this is on CBS on Thursdays, and it stars a Bad A$$ ex-seal who helps a computer genius who designed a computer that takes every possible surveillance and can detect fatal events between people. I missed the one 2 weeks ago that i really wanted to see. Time shift record is a favorite of mine because i sleep late and stay up till 2 or 3 am and networks like to put good shows against each other in prime time to compete.

            • Yep, were are talking about the same show. I go to bed at 11 and up by 7. Keep busy all day doing nothing.

      • Illegal Everything…in America!

        re: John Stossel (from FOX News)— spread this video like Wildfire, showing that nearly All our Liberties are GONE!

        It is estimated that over 1/2 Billion Negative Laws, Rules and Regulations have been created by the Federal Government in the last 40 years.

        This number is STAGGERING — More NEGATIVE LAWS than there are Americans (counting all men, women and children in the USA) TELLING US WHAT WE CANNOT DO (thus negative laws) upon the THREAT Of GOVERNMENTAL PUNISHMENT!

        All these UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAWS are enforced by gun-totting UNIFORMS — if you have not run afoul of such, try selling Lemonade on our lawn…and see how many gun-toting Uniforms will come to shut you down by the threat of their guns they so proudly wear!

        Some are awakening to the fact that Our Citizens have become the most government controlled peoples on this Planet today!

        These Few Enlightened Citizens, these Brave Patriots, these pure Souls in search of TRUE Justice and Liberty for All, have started petitions in all 50 States to Secede from the Federal Government that by its anti-Constitutional and anti-American ACTIVITIES has FORFEITED THE RIGHT to be called the USA.

        The goal of the Secession Petitions is not to break away from the Union, but to negate the Unconstitutional Powers that Washington, DC has usurped for their own anti-American interests, and return ALL States to the Original (Organic) US Constitution!

        It is shameful that the Main Stream Media, and their parroting, brainless shills, have such fear of the Truth, and are spreading false and silly accusations to this American Principle — Secession (if we did not Secede from Tyrannical England, we would not be called Americans)!


  22. We had an outstanding discussion on Thanksgiving. My ex-wife’s husband and I could not be more different politically. I also have differences with my daughter’s husband, and my other daughter’s boyfriend.

    Yet, there we were, the four of us, around the table with an amazing political discussion. We did have disagreements, but on the topics we chose, we mostly agreed aggressively.

    It was quite an experience. My daughter finally had to kick us out, kicking and screaming–because we were having too much fun.

      • Billy:

        Nah. They left us alone. I had no idea where they were or what they were doing. they came out of hiding when it was time to pack up and go home.

      • Sam: In our case, it’s pretty funny. My ex-wife was all one way, agreeing with her father. Then, when we were married, she agreed with me. Then she remarried, and is now all the other way again.

        But her husband is actually pretty intelligent, so although we believe oppositely in most cases, we can have a deep and even energetic discussion about politics, and never really disagree.

        The fun part is, my ex, who has no thoughts of her own, is always at the edge of her chair, thinking at any moment, that our energetic discussion could turn to fisticuffs at any moment. Watching an ex-spouse squirm is one of the simple pleasures in life. . .

        • Got a brother-in -law who can still talk with his x but not me. My wife died a number of years ago so I’m only talking about the few (few too many) GFs since. My daughter told me never date anyone in the neighborhood or at work. Work was no problem as I’ve been out of work for years and I got friends in the neighborhood that are ladies but the GF keeps her apt in Ky.

        • Goethe – truly, ex-wives believe we will become territorial and they can no longer control us. You can almost see fear.

          Unfortunately my Ex’s and present are independent thinkers from me, but present and 1st ex are influenced by everyone else including MSM. Hence political talk verboten. So their voting always neutered mine.

          My second wife and I were on common wavelengths and it was great. However, in ’92 she voted Perot, and Perot won Santa Clara & San Jose Counties, CA where we were at the time. So she was externally influenced as well.

          Good Luck with political discussions with relatives – I’ve learned to check the water, then go sit in a corner, cause i don’t know how to debate and if logic and truth isn’t behind who i talk with . . .

          • Sam: A lot of it has to do with ideas, not parties.

            If you feel loyalty to a party, you end up twisting yourself to justify and rationalize their idiocy. You’ve got a horse in the race–a vested interest.

            The thing that makes political discussions uncomfortable is what you DON’T know. Somebody says something and you don’t have an answer so you feel stupid. Or worse, you don’t really believe what your party is selling, but you’re tied to them by loyalty, and defending what you don’t really believe is the worst.

            One of the funniest arguments I ever had was when I went to the county fair. Some bible-thumper saw four young people coming and he felt he could whip us, and when he heard that i had 12 years of parochial school, he knew how to attack. BUT, I had never bought the catechism, so I had nothing to defend. Whenever he’d make a point, I’d shift ground, and soon, he was contradicting himself.

            It’s like that book, Women Who Love Too Much. Anyone who is married to a political party is at a disadvantage in a discussion.

            • Goethe – I agree with your synopsis about party affiliation. That why I’m really a independent even tho i joined the Libertarian platform. If there is a chance that a Libertarian could truly be elected i would vote for that person. My political needs are somewhat unique and NO ONE Party meets all of them. So i pick the closet values, least warts and a actual possibility to win. In summary – i prefer constitutional, moral, secular, good business manager, wants the US to carry the biggest stick and not afraid to use it, and we play by OUR rules, not someone else.

  23. Goethe,

    Your statement “If Mormons are Christians, then so are Muslims, since they both recognize Jesus–and both interpret Him in ways that are totally inconsistent with mainstream Christianity” is blasphemous, an INSULT to all Christians! A Christian is a follower of Christ’s teachings and all of the books in the Bible.

    Muslims follow Muhammad’s teachings and have their own book called the Qu’ran, also transliterated Qur’an, Koran, Al-Coran, Coran, Kuran, and Al-Qur’an, and is the central religious text of Islam, which Muslims believe to be the verbatim word of God. Muslims acknowledge Christians ~”The people of the Book” and they also believe that Jesus was a prophet.

    However, the tenets of Christianity and Islam are vastly different.

    Christians believe that Christ won’t return to the earth until all the people groups (every tribe and nation) of the world has been given the gospel, while Muslims believe that Allah won’t return until EVERYONE on the earth is Muslim.

    “Jihad”, an inner spiritual struggle and an outer physical struggle is a religious duty of all Muslims. The “greater jihad” is the inner struggle by a believer to fulfill his religious duties. This non-violent meaning is stressed by Muslims as a way to infiltrate a country or region. They start out by being peace abiding and grateful, but as they increase in numbers, they become more insistant that their laws and customs be respected and enforced.

    The “lesser jihad” is the physical struggle against the enemies of Islam. This physical struggle can take a violent form or a non-violent form. The proponents of the violent form translate jihad as “holy war”.
    Martyrs for Allah are promised 72 virgins (who must be supernatural) because they don’t defecate, urinate, or menstruate and their skin is so translucent that the marrow can be seen inside of their bones.

    Muslims are not permitted to be financially indebted to anyone, so they will not borrow money to buy a house or property. Only the wealthy Muslims buy property. The poorer ones will use a country’s social welfare system to secure housing, medical treatment, and other necessities for themselves to survive.

    Mormons adhere to the KJV translation of the Bible, along with their “Book of Mormon” and the
    “The Pearl of Great Price”.

    I have seen interviews by ex-Mormons and they all say the same thing. Joseph Smith was a fraud and had an over-active imagination. In 1817 (at the age of 12) he moved with his family to the burned-over district of western New York, an area repeatedly swept by religious revivals during the Second Great Awakening. The Smiths believed in visions and prophecies, and participated in folk religious practices typical of the era.

    According to Smith, beginning in the early 1820s (age 16) he had visions (by “Scrying” also called seeing or peeping)and obtained miraculous information from the reflections of seer stones. Smith had at least three separate stones, including his favorite, a brown stone he found during excavation of a neighbor’s well. He initially used these stones in various treasure-digging quests in the early 1820s, placing the stone in the bottom of his hat and putting his face in the hat to read what he believed were the miraculous reflections from the stone.

    Smith also said that he had access to a separate set of spectacles composed of seer stones, which he called the Urim and Thummim. He believed that, through these stones, he could translate the “gold” plates that are the stated source of the Book of Mormon. (Modern day science has proved that the plates were made out of brass and not gold)

    The God of the Bible prohibits this kind of divination, for Deuteronomy 18:9-12 reads: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.”

    Because God does not change (he is the alpha and the omega), I and many other Christians believe that the Mormons are practicing “heresy” and are not true believers.










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    looking through a seer stone in his hat). in one of which an angel directed him to a buried book of golden plates inscribed with a Judeo-Christian history of ancient American civilizations. In 1830, he published what he said was an English translation of these plates as the Book of Mormon and organized the Church of Christ as a “restoration of the early Christian church.

    The Smiths had access to Bibles, books, tea boxes; and Egyptian papyrus documents, luxuries that many people couldn’t afford or never heard about. All of which Joseph Smith plagiarized into the Book of Mormon. Some say that he forbid his followers from drinking tea, least they find the same Chinese letters on a tea box that is seen in their book.

    • Daisy, sometimes I wonder if you even bother to read a comment before you disagree.

      I said–and you even quoted–“if Mormons are Christians, then so are Muslims.”

      This is a logical equation, “if-then.” It equates the two sides of the equation. My point was that Mormons and Muslims are NOT Christians, since they follow prophets who came later.

      You then copied-and-pasted (awkwardly) a too-long response that confirmed MY point. What was your point intended to be??

      • Just because you believe that Mormons aren’t Christians, doesn’t mean that Mormons believe that! Mormons are constantly changing their doctrine (The mark of Cain for instance) to be in step with Christian beliefs. Today they call themselves “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” to appear as if they are another denomination of Christianity. Their marketing and televised advertising of family values appeal to the global audience of being “wholesome and good”.

        If you are using logic, then you wouldn’t group Mormons and Muslims together! They are two distinct groups of people.

        While Christians ( and Mormons)look for Jesus’ 2nd coming, the Jews await the Messiah and Muslims await the 12th Imam. However, of the three, Allah’s designated Mahdi is the only one who demands a violent path to conquer the world, and that my friend is a concern to us all!!!!

        • Daisy, again you are confirming what I said.

          But let me see if I can clarify my equation.

          You’ve heard the expression “apples and oranges,” right? You do understand that they are different, right?

          So to paraphrase my equation. . .

          “If Apples are Christians, then so are Oranges.”

          That statement does NOT say that either are Christians, and NEITHER does it say that apples and oranges are the same thing. Do you get it now?

          You remind me of the old bit by Cheech & Chong. Cheech portrays a whacked-out recovering drug addict at a recovery meeting:

          “I used to be all messed up on drugs. . .
          Then I found the Lord. . .
          Now I’m all messed up on the Lord.”

          • Unlike you, I see the Mormons as “halfway Christians” for they do adhere to many of the teachings of the King James Bible. They also are peace loving and can assimilate themselves better into our American culture. I take that as a compliment that you find me “all messed up on the Lord!”

            I am more afraid of secularists like you who want to eradicate God from our country! You encourage and permit militant secularism and before we know it, we will be fighting the Islamic creep that is currently destroying England, France, Belgium and others.

            England is vastly loosing her heritage and will be overtaken by Islam. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3442/belgium-islamic-state
            should give you some idea of what is happening over there.

  24. Sorry about all that goobly-gook at the bottom. I thought that I deleted it, but it came through anyway.

    My last point was Joseph Smith allegedly received a new “revelation” while he was looking through a seer stone in his hat. An angel directed him to a buried book of golden plates inscribed with a Judeo-Christian history of ancient American civilizations. In 1830, he published what he said was an English translation of these plates as the “Book of Mormon” and organized the Church of Christ as a “restoration” of the early Christian church.

    The Smiths had access to Bibles, books, tea boxes; and Egyptian papyrus documents, luxuries that many people couldn’t afford or never heard about. All of which Joseph Smith plagiarized into the Book of Mormon. Some say that he forbid his followers from drinking tea, least they find the same Chinese letters on a tea box that is seen in their book.

  25. Daisy…have you ever researched how our present day bible came to be? In 1500 the Roman Catholic Church was the only permitted faith in western Europe. Johann Gutenberg invented the printing press in the 1450’s, and the first book ever printed was a Latin language Bible, printed in Mainz, Germany. In 1517, Martin Luther nailed his famous 95 Theses onto the church door at Wittenberg. Martin Luther translated and published the Bible in the commonly-spoken dialect of the German people; a translation more appealing than previous German Biblical translations. And the confessional was gone from the Lutheran Church. 1525-1526 William Tyndale, using Luther’s German bible,translated the German version into the English language. During the the Reformation (1500-1700)period the Catholic Church was reformed and reorganized, and numerous “protestant” sects were separately established. These included Lutheran, Anglican and Calvinist denominations. The Protestants were later subdivided by doctrinal differences into a bewildering number of sects known as Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Puritans, Quakers and so on. The King James Bible is the most printed book in the history of the world. There are two versions, one in 1611 and the 1769 Baskerville Birmingham revision. The spellings have been revised, and some words changed, in almost every printing done since 1769, and fourteen entire books plus extra prefatory features have been removed from almost every printing done since 1885! The 15 books, known as the Apocrypha, were officially removed from the English printings of the King James Bible in 1885 by the Archbishop of Canterbury, leaving only 66 books from the original 81.

    Islamic belief holds that the angel Gabriel spoke the Qur’an to the prophet Muhhamad and was ordered to recite (because he could not read or write). Muhammad later taught the Qur’an to the followers he gained shortly thereafter, who wrote these teachings on anything they could find, such as bark or leaves, or paper if available.

    I cannot comment on Joseph Smith but I do know Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God. That his birth, life, death, and resurrection fulfilled the many prophecies contained in the scriptures concerning the coming of a Savior. They believe He was the Creator, Savior, and will be our Judge. Sound familiar?

    • Oh yes, your summation of the Mormon faith “sounds” familiar, until you examine closely the differences that exist.

      Mormon theology teaches that God is only one of countless gods, that he used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second (though this is disputed among Mormons) was Satan, and then we all followed.

      But, the Bible says that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5), that God has been God eternally (Psalm 90:2) — which means he was never a man on another planet. Since the Bible denies the existence of other gods (and goddesses – there is a mother goddess in Mormonism), the idea that Jesus is the product of a god and goddess couple is rejected. The Bible tells us that Jesus – The Jesus of Mormonism – is definitely not the same Jesus of the Bible. Therefore, faith in the Mormon Jesus is faith misplaced because the Mormon Jesus doesn’t exist.

      Mormonism says Jesus’ Sacrifice is not enough

      Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. Consider the late James Talmage, an LDS apostle who said, “The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil,” (Articles of Faith, p. 432), and “Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience,” (Articles of Faith, p. 81). This clearly contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of becoming salved (Rom. 4:1-5) but a result of them (James 2:14-18).

      To further confuse the matter, Mormonism states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone (2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32), the Bible does teach it is by faith alone (Rom. 3:28; 4:1-5). Both cannot be true.

      Regarding the KJV: The 1611 KJV translators were limited in the manuscripts available to them. The Dead Sea Scrolls had not been discovered yet (1947). ( Ancient Greek manuscripts had not yet been uncovered. Aleph, a fourth century AD codex, was discovered in 1859 by Tischendorf in the monastery of St. Catharine at Mt. Sinai. Codex Vaticanus from fourth century AD at the great Vatican Library at Rome was not made available until a photographic facsimile was published in 1889-90.(See The Text of the New Testament By Bruce Metzger published by Oxford University Press, 1964).

      The current KJV being printed differs in a number of details from the KJV 1611. There are also numerous printing errors in different editions of the KJV. The 1611 editions have “Then cometh Judas” instead of “Then cometh Jesus” in Matthew 26:36. There is the “Wicked Bible” edition of the KJV where “not” is omitted from the seventh commandment saying, “thou shalt commit adultery.”

      William Kilburne in 1659 found 20,000 errors in six different KJV’s. In 1701 Bishop Lloyd added the chronology of Bishop Ussher. Even today there are differences between the KJV published by Oxford, Cambridge, and Nelson publishers (See The English Bible from KJV to NIV: A History and Evaluation by Jack p. Lewis, published by Baker, 1981).

      You have also lost me on your commentary of Islamic beliefs. Are you saying that all faiths are grounded in archaic writings and therefore cannot be considered absolute truth in today’s modern world???

      • Daisy –

        before you speak as an authority on the Mormon Church you should spend some time on Mormon.org to see what they really believe in the here and now. One quote i did pick up: “We believe first and foremost that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God.” They presently also believe there is only one God (- infinity to + infinity)

        I cannot speak for Tess, but what she said was accurate about Islam and yes the Qur’an is accurate from written words spoke by Muhammad to his disciples in the 7th century CE. Also, yes they recognize Jesus as a Prophet, not a Savior, as their ancestors were brothers spawned by Abraham.

        I personally don’t believe all that is in the Qur’an and if Gabriel did deliver words to Muhammad, Muhammad might have had a little to much Turkish hash at those times.

        As many Revs and deletions and translations that the “Christian Bibles” have been through, only the most Fundamentalist would conceive that it is pure and delivered unchanged from The Creator to a standard KJV we see today. btw, the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in ’47 begin to appear in print between old and new in ’53. And yes i have a copy of them and how they were found.

        • Sam,

          The 12 basic tenets of Christianity are:

          1. Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
          2. We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
          3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is fully man and fully God
          4. The Incarnation of Jesus Christ (born by a virgin)
          5. The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
          6. The Ascension of Jesus Christ
          7. The Doctrine of the Trinity
          8. The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
          9. We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
          10. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit (we are born again and are adopted children
          of God)
          11. The Doctrine of Hell
          12. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth to Judge and rule as
          righteous King

          Joseph Smith is considered a “false Prophet” by many evangelical Christians. His “revelations” were obtained by divination, which is strictly forbidden by the Bible. Because the Mormon’s read the KJV, there is hope that some truth will resonate with them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a989OOSOycw is a long, but informed video to what Mormon’s really believe and how one family found the “true” Jesus.

          Mormons believe that they get to go to their own planet is heresy. They are also in danger of receiving all the plagues described in Rev. 22:18 ~ I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.”

          The book of Revelation describes the rapture of the Church; the Day of The Lord; Armageddon; Christ’s millennial reign; Satan thrown in the lake of fire; the regenerated earth, and the New Jerusalem (God’s holy city) coming down out of heaven to reside here on earth.

          • Daisy – I’m glad you have it all worked out. It is very important to some people to want and need such a vigorous set of rules and axioms to return to the Pure Energy realm after a lifetime. For you, I would imagine that you and 100 billion others rest at the feet of Jesus for the rest of Eternity.

            Some others like Mormons have loosened and given other thoughts to what their eternity will look like. With a belief that Smith felt his followers have the opportunity to go to a separate Energy domain. “In my Father’s house are many mansions”

            The only person written about to come back after 3 days, didn’t come back to talk about his “Father’s house”, but rather to show his disciples without faith that his energy is eternal.

            There are also people who under the Guidance of a Psychiatrist specialized in Hypnotherapy have relayed experiences in the pure energy domain.

            What right did Henry the 8TH have to create the second branch of Protestantism with the Church of England in 1525, or for that matter for Catholic Priest Martin Luther start the entire Protestant Revolution in 1517. Both of these changed by-laws and wording translations from the Roman Catholic texts at the time.

            And you want to tell me that 50 scholars in the 1500’s were perfect in their “gathering” . . .

            Daisy – everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. Lets hope they don’t want to deliberately cause harm, try to follow the golden rule and create Love.

            My personal belief is our omniscient and omnipotent Creator of the Universes imparts his energy plasma to all things in all universes. Specifically my soul and all souls are particles in the Creator’s perfect energy. The Creator’s perfectness is embedded in our soul to help us grow, learn about human emotions to better understand Unconditional Love. Our body does not have a soul – Our soul has a body, temporarily.

            Actually Daisy, your religion is a very narrow subset of my spirituality beliefs of our Perfect Creator.

            • Sam,

              You obviously don’t know the three fold nature of man: First there is the dust of the earth with which the body is formed. Next there is the breath of life with which the spirit is formed. Finally there is the soul, which is the result of combining the two contrary natures inside one body. The soul is created as the buffer between the spirit and the body. Man is not a living body nor is he a living spirit. Man is a living soul, and it is this soul that is the controlling entity of the three. Each nature has a different function and possess different senses. It is through the different senses that the soul receives information and determines the course of action to be taken.

              The three parts of man (body, soul, and spirit) gives him knowledge of his existence. With the body man gains knowledge of the world, this is his carnal or fleshy nature. With the soul man gains knowledge of himself, this is his natural or soulish nature. With the spirit man gains knowledge of God, this is his spiritual nature. The body came from the earth; therefore it gives us input from the earth. The spirit came from God therefore it gives us access to God. The soul is uniquely man, and it gives us knowledge of our self.

              Just because you and others consider my relgious beliefs a very narrow subset of spirituality doesn’t mean that it is wrong or untrue. The beauty of free-will is that we each get to decide for ourselves who God is and what he requires from each of us. Many people try to create God in their imagine, rejecting who the Bible says he is. So be it, but one day the world will know the truth, but it will be too late for most…..

  26. Yes, Daisy. I am saying that I believe all faiths were founded from archaic writing because that was the beginning. Each faith has translated those writings to correspond to their interpretation. Go back and read your own description of the variation to our present bible.

    • Tess, I am quite aware as how the Bible got passed down (from the spoken word to the Theodotion to the Vulgate to the Geneva Bible to the KJV to the American Standard to the NIV to the New Living Translation and so forth.

      The Bible is said to be a living word, meaning that God’s words will not come back void (it produces something) Isaiah 55:11 tells us this. The more one studies scripture, the clearer one sees the truth, and that the Bible is God’s word, revealed to man, despite any transcription errors.

      I personally study many translations and I favor John MacArthur’s study Bible and the NIV because they are written in today’s modern language and understandable to me. The KJV has more of a lyrical prose to it for it was written in the King’s english in the 16th century and is beautiful to read, but hard for me to understand.

      Everyone must find truth for themselves. With so many choices in the world, it can be a daunting endeavor.

  27. middle east—missing roman military sheilds at sid bad used as a mirror

    lee-ne-in-see a-lee-gin-see rule of rome in secert clem-in-see

    are examples of the roman military sheild at sid bad used as a mirror

    gaza for example apply sheild tower of babel small computer point for gathtings of people–sins bad who tune the thing

    military without lee-ne-in see or a-lee-gin see for example or a military officer who knows no clem-in-see dangerous things easy to learn learn to win

  28. at boot camp get fighing sticks with football helmits

    sins bad who sins bad ha full reverse until sid bad

    to learn military sheilds at sid bad used as a mirror

  29. 5-Minute Video–Ron Paul Interview:

    He said the worst lobbyists are
    –The Military-Industrial Complex
    –The Banking System/Big Banks

    He said people agree with him on each issue–
    Do you believe in Free Enterprise? YES.
    Do you believe that your privacy should be protected? YES.
    [Government in your bedroom, and people spying on you]
    Do you think we should be policeman of the world? NO.
    –BUT worry that he wants “too much freedom.”

    He used to think that there was a welfare problem with people who won’t work
    BUT he realized the real problem is the “food stamps” that the wealthy get
    –the contracts and the special deals

    He said he didn’t run as an independent because the two parties have a monopoly.
    He said he Libertarians and the Greens don’t have a chance, because the game is rigged.
    So he says the trick is to speak on college campuses and to build coalitions.


    • Sam…did you really listen to what Ken Baschke was saying and promoting? Do you know his background? As the wife of a wartime naval officier, I know that the president of the United States is your Commander in Chief and, whether you voted for him or not, whether you like him or not, whether retired or active, he is your commander. Benghazi was a heartbreaking disaster but, at this moment, no one actually has factual proof of who did what or who commanded what. Like many, I have uncomfortable suspions but I am waiting for the truth. Jennifer Griffin, for one, has written articles of personal theories but offer no solid facts, simply saying someone told her so. Second hand gossip is seldom reliable. Does your military articles also refer to President Barack Obama as BO?

      • Tess – I thank you and your husband for your service. I assume you were married when he served actively or in the active reserves. If married, a man does not server alone. I served 30 years, 10 enlisted, 10 as a CWO and 10 as a Limited Duty Officer (6385). Your husband will know what it is. As enlisted, my oath included the POTUS and Officers above me. As an Officer your husband’s and my oath is to the duties of our Office. That is not to stay that the “duty” may be an OPNAVINST for me to report directly to CinC, but far more likely my duties would be directed through many levels of Command. Even now after 20 years of retirement CNavpers could send me PCS orders to report to God knows where. I served on a Can from ’59 to ’63 and on P-2s and S-2s from ’65 to ’69. I then served in the active reserves with various Carriers support of their Ship’s Company. I have never refused to obey an order and never would except to fire on my men or U.S. civilians – but I am 72 and way to old for that crap.

        Tess, all that said — i am probably the only person i know that calls that entity BO. I also called Romney MR. For over 50 years, since ROTC, I have also respected the office of POTUS / CinC. But the entity that controls that office at present, i have no respect for whatsoever. Your Husband will also understand that, I’m sure i’m not the only one that disrespected a fellow Officer entity but not the specific office he or she held.

        Obama the man is a traitor to the American people and has even said he want’s to bring about a revolutionary change to the American way of life.

        Benghazi: Obama is trying to bury his part in the attack and deflect the whole thing away from him – And the MSM is helping him. If he were a republican he would have been impeached and gone by now.
        The reality is he watched the whole thing live and allowed four of his to be murdered. POTUS / CinC knows in less than 5 minutes after something like Benghazi commences.
        We are now on the verge of becoming a Totalitarian nation and will soon change our name to the USSA

          • I mean no disrespect Tess – We just have a difference of opinion about Obama. Your husband understands that in order to lead, you must win your subordinates respect. Obama has spent four years setting the pillars to making the US a lesser nation. MY heart of hearts and gut tells me that Obama is bad for the US.

            • Goethe…somehow in my life I missed knowing about Toucan Sam. Had to Google him. Thanks for the cereal box clue. Seriously, I have the highest respect for Sam R’s opinions, I believe he has earned the privilege to say (write) whatever he believes. That is the precious gift we receive as Americans.

            • Tess: Yeah. Sam and I have even agreed a few times. But I get tired of hearing about one political party always being the cat’s pajamas and the other political party always being the root of all evil.

            • Goethe – has nothing to do with a specific party – and if I had to declare a party, it would be libertarian –

              It’s the ideology – liberal is all about big government, un-earned entitlements vs earned benefits, Socialism (as long as you don’t call it Socialism), 1st Amendment (as long as it is the Liberal viewpoint), No 2nd Amendment (so “We the People” can be controlled – not safety), submission to other cultures outside the US (which will in turn be perceived as weakness and ok to denounce and conquer).

              As it turns out this is not necessarily the Democrat Platform – but it is what 95% of Democrats subscribe to.

              As you always disagree, even if factual, of my thoughts – i can also only deduce this is your ideology as well and not libertarian.

              This is alien to who “we the people” started out with and what drove us to our initial American Revolution.

              And liberals don’t support the topics of free market and Big Unions outliving their bullying tactics and have forgotten the real reason for their existence. Fair wage amenable to Employee and Employer.

  30. Well, thanks a LOT, folks. By making the sillyass furor over Susan Rice, now we’re going to be stuck with John Kerry as the face and voice of the United States in international matters.

    One of the reasons Rice might have had a hard time getting confirmed is that liberals didn’t like that she was so hard-nosed in the United Nations.

    Now, we’ll have the Democratic version of Mitt Romney as Secretary of State. Thanks a lot, folks.

  31. Sam…as a bleeding heart liberal I can’t refrain from answering. “We the People” of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty, etc is from the preamble,and in itself gave no powers to the government. The First Amendment was honored by 95% of all Americans until the USA Patriot Law was passed by George W Bush and a Republican Congress Oct 26, 2001, and we lost freedom of speech (every word now has to be politically correct), the press audited, and the right of the people to peaceably assemble. Evidently, we didn’t read the same Second Amendment, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”. How did you get “submission to other cultures”?

    Liberals do believe in fair trade as long as it’s FAIR. For Nike to produce a pair of Michael Jordan shoes for $6.00 dollars in a foreign country, bring them back to the USA and sell that pair of shoes for $175.00 or more should be criminal. Out sourcing is not fair to the thousands of unemployed American men and women. Of course, Nike has lots of company, Apple, Dell and not one American made TV in stores. Oh, yes, let’s not forget the big unions who helped the working men and women receive a decent hourly wage. This is not to defend their corruption which certainly was not as horrendous as Ken Lay and Enron or AIG and the banking system. Men who commanded $25.00 an hour wage in the nineteen nineties are happy to find a $12.00 position today, while the CEO gets an enormous salary and millions in bonus. And who did away all the regulations that would have helped the above from happening? Well, it wasn’t the democrats or the libertians and certainly not the liberals.

    Beneficiaries of entitlement programs are business corporations, local governments, political parties, nonprofit organizations, social security, medicare, medicaid, veterans’ administration programs, federal employee and military retirement plans, unemployment compensation, and food stamps. I am sure there are many government entitlements that I missed. Oh, yes, Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS and Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year. Now, that is what I call entitlements and we worry about giving food stamps to hungry children.

    • Tess – These are your opinions and it is obvious you are in lock step with the MSM – and that is your right as a free American to express those opinions as it is my right to express the opinions I did. There is no way I could convince you that the things i said were valid as i have certainly learned from debates with Goethe, Billy and you.

      So this is my last comment on this website – i’ll continue to read others for awhile, but basically people are using this website to either generate a debate or as a platform of their own that is unmovable.

      That said:

      Bush’s Patriot Act has various Sunset clauses in it and at no time violates any Amendment and has nothing whatsoever to do with the 1st Amendment. However if you are a terrorist or express outloud terrorist / enemy functions or threats – then it will kick your butt. It’s best not to give your Administration anything to worry about, or even close. If you’ll notice i talk a lot about my dislike for this Administration – but no threats of any kind. Study the Patriot Act and even what is still in affect. What is far more dangerous are the E.O.s this and previous Presidents have released. And your Hero Obama has released 119 E.O.s and on track to beat both Clinton and Bush. And the most dangerous one is “The National Defense Resources Preparedness,” an update of Bush / Clinton / Eisenhower – stating a key addition to the language made by Obama is: “that all these industries and means of production can be seized under both emergency and non-emergency conditions.” This applies also to seizure of a person and their property without giving a reason. Now that is screwing with your Amendment Rights.

      2nd Amendment – “A well regulated Militia” – we are downsizing our military personnel and capability considerably, including taking our nuclear capability size down to a very low number. This make idiot countries believe they can aggress on us. Bowing lower than the Muslim Monarch of Egypt is a direct submission of status. Not remaining completely secular and showing preference to Islamic culture and denying any form of Christian culture is a form of submission – Liberals and Democrats are adamant about any reference to Christianity or even God. (i.e. for one, the Democrat’s convention.) Obama has directly stated: The US should be less powerful and the UN should have more control over the US.”

      Employees are getting the same wages for the same jobs, just not getting raises. After i was laid off from my last Technical job – and i pursued employment i was told i was way too qualified and they could hire someone less qualified for less money. that’s not greedy management that is good business sense. I was forced to retire early and go into and almost deplete my IRA – that’s how the ball bounces.

      You need to look at where (the country) a HQ is formed to understand both pricing and taxes. in 2011 Exxon actually paid $15B in taxes to the various countries where they a specific HQ. None here in the US ?? look at thye tax laws here and you’ll know why. If a company makes a product in another country and sells it there no US import / export / US taxes. If made here and sold here heavy duty taxes. It is easy to understand why HQ’s and Manufacturing is done in other countries. the way America can build and sell here against other countries is by charging the incoming countries product a heavy duty import tax.

      There is a major difference between a @#$%^&* entitlement and an earned benefit. I and my employer put 15% of my earnings (before taxes) since 1955 into Social Security and 3% since 1964 into Medicare and I still pay $110/mo for my Medicare. If your beloved Liberals / Democrats would have left it alone and not integrated it into the General Income fund and Budget, on SSA i would be living off of my input to age 93. Where do think about $5T dollars we owe ourselves belongs to??

      I put 30 years into the military (8 active and 22 active reserves) and draw a retirement from DFAS. I also was on a ship where we were “target” for nuclear testing in ’62 and have had 2 cancers now. So i also get a VA subsidy as i know longer can work.

      If your husband is the military war vet, as you say – then ask him if i earned my retirement and subsidy from Navy/VA.

      Big difference between EARNED benefits and entitlements. As well as local, state, and federal retirement programs are outrageous, plus the money “bleeding hearts” want to donate to other countries. Take care of OUR homeless first. Give as many food stamps as you want but make sure it goes to pay for food. Aid to dependent children is fine, but start reducing the amount as children multiply. There are people who make a living off of ADC.

      Tess – as i’ve looked through your comments you are a very smart woman, i have no idea your age – 35 or 65, but like me, you may not look before you leap and actually i don’t think i said anything that you were not already aware of. As you are “bleeding heart Liberal”, i am no other ideology in particular – just want the US to be a successful free nation with the morals, and rights that it took us over 200 years to accomplish. For me that means anti-liberal for all the reasons i stated earlier.

      Merry Christmas and have a good day!! sam

      • Sam…I know our minds will never meet but I do wish for you health and happiness…a Merry Christmas and may this coming year be the best of your life.

  32. I mentioned the convention I went to, in which a speaker talked about the “Platinum Rule.” His point was that it is not enough to treat others as we want to be treated–we need to treat them how THEY want to be treated.

    The same speaker said that anything is possible if we work together. He broke us up into small groups and told us to each come up with a crazy idea. Then, the job of the group was to turn the crazy idea into something that works.

    It was amazing to watch.

    I think my idea was that we should give away a Rolls Royce if someone bought our brand of candy bar. Nobody said, “that’s ridiculous.” Each came up with a way to make it work,such as having a DRAWING for the car, or offering a chance at a free weekend driving the car. I don’t remember all the ideas, but they were good.

    It worked that way with every crazy idea, and it wax exhilarating to find solutions, instead of just judging other people’s ideas.

    The problem is that everyone today has a rigid idea of how things should be, and there’s no effort to validate the other person’s view. So everyone feels disrespected, not just having different points of view. And we are all guilty.

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