Can Obamacare be fixed?

It’s a good question now that it’s basically here to stay unless or until the repeal crowd wins majorities in the Senate and takes the White House. That means, for the next 3+ years, we’ll be dealing with this health care law causing more headaches, at this point, than remedies. According to the CBO, the health care law will end up costing taxpayers double the initial estimates projected by the Obama administration. Here is a summary of some of the problems coming to light in recent months and weeks.

Report from Fox News, on October 8, regarding the amount of health care costs increasing dramatically over the next 10 years:

… But now government actuaries have reached a different conclusion, finding that ObamaCare will actually increase health care spending by $621 billion over the next 10 years.

Doug Holtz-Eakin, the former head of the Congressional Budget Office, says, “now we’re seeing the official scorekeepers of health spending say ‘hey it’s going up, not down.’ That’s going to be a mark against the program no matter what.”

Jim Capretta of the Ethics and Public Policy Center says the actuaries “made it very clear in their projections that the health care law did not bend the cost curve down. It bent it up,” he says, adding, “there will be increase in national health spending associated with the implementation of the health care law.”

Analysts say there is no mystery about the increasing costs — that it’s all in the way the law was structured.

More from CBS News back in September:

New research from the Manhattan Institute estimates that insurance rates for young men will rise by 99 percent. Rates for younger women will rise between 55 percent to 62 percent, according to the right-leaning New York think tank.

The precise impact of the new health law is likely to vary markedly from state-to-state, however. That’s largely because different states have had different requirements for what had to be included in health insurance policies in the past. The Affordable Care Act, commonly known as Obamacare, overrides these rules and sets a federal overlay that demands a wide array of mandatory coverages. The Manhattan Institute has drawn up an interactive map that may help forecast the rise in cost for individuals.

These differences mean men will get hammered in North Carolina with an average 305 percent rate hike, while women will suffer in Nebraska, paying an average of 237 percent more. For most people, subsidies in the law will not counteract the rate shock, says co-author of the study Avik Roy, a health care expert and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

Some reports around the country of health insurance rates rising as a result of the Affordable Care Act:

Maine:
Obamacare costlier for Maine than most of U.S.

Michigan:
Michigan healthcare costs to jump 95% under Obamacare

Pennsylvania:
Mother Forced by Obamacare to Choose Between ‘New Health Plan or Putting Food on the Table’

Ohio:
Ohio insurance department claims Obamacare premium rates to rise 41 percent

Florida:
Florida says health insurance prices will spike; feds disagree

North Carolina:
Budget-busting health insurance increases

California:
Affordable Care Act driving some premiums up
Health insurance shoppers suffer sticker shock

Oregon:
Why your health insurance premium could increase under the Affordable Care Act

I could continue filling this post with stories from around the country of rising insurance premiums resulting from the Affordable Care Act but I think you get the point.

So, the question then becomes, what do we do about it? Will premium increases even out of the coming years or will they continue rising? Most of these stories don’t discuss the tremendous increases many consumers are experiencing in their deductibles, some tripling, even quadrupling coupled with a higher premium amount.

Then there is the fine if you don’t obtain coverage which starts at $95 this year and then doubles, triples and dramatically increases in the coming years.

What parts of the law can be changed, if any, to stem the rising premiums and actually provide affordable care? Should the subsidy threshold be lowered to give more people a break on these rising costs? What do you think might happen over the next 3 years if costs continue rising?

  • Jeffm

    I think this will be overturned by the supreme court for the issue related to forcing religious organizations to carry insurance that funds abortions. That is before the supreme court during this session and since there is no sever-ability clause in the Law all the supreme court has to do is find one thing unconstitutional and the whole thing will be gone.

    • Surfisher

      Jeffm — this is an astute observation. However, would the liberals prevalent Supreme Court do the right thing, or just give the expected politically motivated vote?

    • Surfisher

      The US Constitution PROHIBITS the mandate of anyone (whether private or public entities) from FORCING their goods or services on the Free American People upon the threat of penalty! (Example: If Verizon tells you: “You must subscribe to our service, or be penalized”. If Verizon tries to force that upon you, any Court of Law would find them guilty of EXTORTION)!

      Thus, why would Obama’s “Obamacare” be treated differently, and not as the illegal EXTORTION that it is?!

  • Goethe Behr

    Just logging in to see what people say.

    • Surfisher

      Goethe Behr — LOL, you can log in to read without the need to post it….

      Afraid your cooky comments will get slammed again with logic…kid….?

      • Goethe Behr

        Surfisher: You’re such a idiot.

        • Surfisher

          Goethe Behr — LOL.

          Seems all posters here (excepting Tess Liehard) think you are the idiot….

          • Goethe Behr

            Surf: You are really delusional. You think people agree with you???

            I’m not here to agree with people, or to expect people to agree with me. I’m just trying to post ideas and questions to get discussions going. You, on the other hand, are abusive, abrasive, aggressive and try to shut down discussion. And you think you have friends on here??

            • Surfisher

              Goethe Behr — what a silly kid you are.

              All posters here (excepting the Tess Liehard shill) are trying to school you, since you lack reasoning ability.

              All are making fun of you, since you are considered as naught but a buffoon here — but, you are too blissful in your ignorance to recognize their constant putdowns of your never ending silly, and usually idiotic, posts on this forum….

              I do feel sorry for you, kid.

            • Goethe Behr

              Surf: You are so delusional. I wouldn’t answer at all, except that you would then fantasize that you were right.

  • http://gravatar.com/billymalone billymalone

    When the states forced mandatory auto insurance on the car owners how much cheaper did it get than it was it than before it was mandated? Full coverage was pretty cheap back before it was mandated but the CEO were not making 10 million + a year either. Forcing people to buy protection is what Mr. Capone did until the government elbowed him out and took over.

    • Surfisher

      billymalone — LOL, LOL, LOL…good one!

      Spot on!

    • Goethe Behr

      Billy: Right on the overpaid CEOs, and of course, insurance execs get bonuses for denying coverage.

      But, of course, part of he increase was due to the cost of cars. I bought a brand new car for $2100, and about ten years later, the cost ten times that much.

  • Ilee Carr

    This terrible Heath care law will implode on its self because the internal mechanism requires 7+ million young enrollees in the first year… It a ponzi that depends on young healthy paying for the sick & old… They tried something similar in the 80’s that was close to this train wreck & it blew up in their faces causing Libs/DEM’s to scramble to nullify & eventually fully repeal. I applaud the house for trying to protect the population from themselves & this catastrophe, but ignorant people have to be hit upside the wallet before they stand up & pay attention. OH & they will be smacked dead on, in the wallet by fines, deductibles, & premiums. They will also have an even greater hardship then current Medicaid recipients do now finding a doctor much less a specialist that will see them, that fete is already mission impossible! Compound that with all the letters going out telling them they have a year to find alternate insurance because their current insurance doesn’t meet the 10 coverage requirements….finally ice that cake with the people that have their heads buried in the sand, filing their tax returns expecting that free money via earned income credits, only to find it cut into by the IRS and receiving a letter explaining its because they didn’t enroll in the Dictator Obama’s approved plans… Just you wait for that crap storm to hit the fan….why do you think he prolonged the primary hard hitting effects until after the Prez elections & he was safely harbored in his 2nd term?

  • Josh

    This quote i saw today says it all – “Finally, this big government shutdown business is over so we can get back to the big government letdown.” – Tim Hawkins

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy

    Obamacare was and is a “trojan horse” designed to decimate the 3rd party payer system and bring all us workerbees in line to a single party payer ~ the U.S. “guvnment”. The spin doctors made it sound like there are poor wretched souls NEEDING health care, but are too poor to pay for the premiums and BIG Government is going to solve their dilemmia. What they didn’t tell the American people (especially the working class) is at whose expense? (THEIRS!!!)

    When I found out that only 13% of the population aren’t insured or don’t have government coverage, I asked myself this? What is the real motive behind Obamacare? Answer: To CREATE a new honey pot for Congress to steal from!!!!

    Obamacare can only be defunded/repealed if the MAJORITY of the WORKING CLASS demands it! Unfortunately, most people are too tired from working to give it much thought! The Teaparty (because it is comprised of INFORMED retirees) has been the loudest voice along with the Libertarians who VALUE and uphold the constitution. NOW is the time to scream and yell; PROTEST and DEMAND that CONGRESS follow the same rules that they put before their SUBJECTS (we, the working class!)

  • http://gravatar.com/grandmadaisy Daisy
    • Surfisher

      Daisy — spot on!

      Why I call since Jimmy Carter times Dems as Democrooks!

    • Goethe Behr

      Daisy: Wouldn’t this me known as an “earmark”? I thought they were done away with.

  • Surfisher

    Nate asks: “Can Obamacare be fixed?”

    The answer is YES — by having it declared Unconstitutional, and completely Annulled, since it is nothing but illegal Extortion forced on the American people by an US “president” that has failed to provide even his Original Birth Certificate, and, therefore, needs to be forced to resign, or be Impeached!

    Watch this 4 minute video that has already gone viral — covers also the WW2 Memorial barricaded against All American Citizens, while at the National Mall just across, Obama allowed entrance to illegal immigrants to protest immigration laws!

    This alone, shows who Obama is for…ILLEGALS (like himself) get preferential treatment, while US Citizens get obaminated!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXmto-Te9Ms

    Save America — Impeach Barrack Hussein NOW!

  • samreusser

    For the next 3+ years, Obamacare is here to stay, even if the Senate and House are GOP after the ’14 elections.

    • Goethe Behr

      Sam: You’re right. And that’s why the American public usually doesn’t like one-party rule. Any time one party gets the presidency, the house, and 2/3 of the senate, they can pass anything, and something like this is not likely to be overturned now that the Roberts Court has ruled it constitutional (despite Surfisher’s silliness).

  • Josh

    Can Obamacare be fixed implies that it is broken. Except for the websites, its working as designed. It was always going to drive up insurance costs and increase the tax burden both directly and indirectly on Americans.

    It drives up insurance costs by increasing the requirements for what insurance companies cover – conclusion – Obamacare increases cost of insurance

    They theorized that by forcing all Americans into the health market against their will, they would get more people and cover the cost. One problem – the people without coverage are too poor to buy it. They don’t suddenly have money appear just because they are mandated. His solution – tax America more to fund a subsidy. They theorize that if people don’t buy insurance, they will pay fines. One problem – 80% of Americans already have insurance, mainly the poor don’t…so there aren’t any people to ‘pay fines’ to fund the subsidy….CONCLUSION (not yelling, emphasizing) – Obamcare increases tax burden

    Some might say, greedy businesses will fund Obamacare by dropping their employee coverage and paying the fine. OK – maybe that will fund some of it. But really, yelling now…WHAT KIND OF A CONVOLUTED PLAN WILL COUNT ON COMPANIES TO DROP BENEFITS IN ORDER TO FUND THE SAME PEOPLE THAT GET DROPPED?!?

    Some might say, this gets insurance for the uninsured. Well, they will have to buy the insurance. The subsidy doesn’t always cover all the cost, so if they’re poor (and most uninsured are poor) they still won’t have money to buy it. If they’re poor….they won’t face a fine evidently, so they will remain uninsured and the base problem doesn’t get fixed. – conclusion – no help to the uninsured cost issue…but its worse.

    Obamacare cuts in half the re-imbursement health providers get for covering the uninsured (NY Times Article – Hospitals Fear Cuts in Aid for Care to Illegal Immigrants). But the poor will likely still not have insurance, because the subsidies won’t cover all the costs, and they’re already getting a free (albeit uncomfortable) ride. Where then will health providers get this money? By increasing prices – conclusion – insurance rates go up.

    Really there isn’t a place in the Obamacare law that counts on cutting costs that isn’t undermined by other things elsewhere in the law.

    You can’t fix something that is working as designed…it actually needs to be broken. Bad idea all around.

    My died in the wool democrat father-in-law (in his 80’s) turned to me after an Obama speech on Obamacare and said – ‘you know what that is, that’s communism’ – he was right. Funny thing, he still voted for Obama in 2012.

    If the Republicans are smart, they’ll keep the repeal things going in the house and start them in the senate. Once America realizes they’re serious about repeal, they’ll likely revolt again like they did in the 94 and again in 2010.

    Message to America – 1 round, that’s all we ask, 1 round – vote republican in 2014 only to get rid of Obamacare’s mandate.

    With 77% of American’s against the mandate, that’s a winning message.

    • Surfisher

      Josh — excellent post!

      Powerfully written, kudos!

    • samreusser

      Thank you, Josh – and here’s one more little tidbit of ACA fecal matter and hospitals and free care to the poor

      http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=4301673%3ATopic%3A1951071&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_topic

      • Goethe Behr

        Sam: That article directs you to a more in-depth discussion here:

        http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/64309797136/obamacare-levies-fines-on-non-profit-hospitals-that

        But I’ll take a bit of a contrarian stance. This provision in the law requires hospitals to prove that they really ARE “non-profit,” and that they really ARE meeting the needs of the community.

        The reason I think that might be a good idea is that I used to do work for a hospital that was “non-profit.” But they were making so much money that they set up shell companies to siphon off the profit. The hospital (the only “cash cow”) was bundled with a number of purposely money-losing operations in order to hide the real profit being earned. It was really quite blatant. The money losing operations allowed them to pay more and more executives big bucks, and it was really sort of a shell game. They actually joked about it.

        Daisy and Tess have worked in health-care. I wonder if they noticed the same thing. Anybody? Anybody?

        • samreusser

          Goethe maybe you are right, i haven’t dug that deep. Plus it sounds a lot like the prejudice of who got approved and who didn’t AND WHEN where the IRS fingered TeaParty and held up approval for literally years and then audited associates who had never been audited before.

          BTW, reminds me – no way you can know if ABC/NBC/CBS/CNN/MSNBC talking heads are liberally biased if you have no TV and don’t watch TV. The Bias is so widely recognized that these talking heads don’t even try to cover it up. You really need to do some serious research on the liberal associated with Education and the Media. .

          • Goethe Behr

            Sam: Well, I don’t watch regularly, but when I am somewhere that has the TV on, things seem to be the same as they were a few years ago–except that they’re even more superficial. You don’t have to watch every minute to get the gist of their coverage. For instance, when my grandson was born last month, I saw about eight straight hours of Fox. There was not a speck of “news” in the whole eight hours. Just talking heads. I used to watch a lot of Headline News, because that’s all it was–headlines of the important stories–and then, I could go online to find original sources.

        • Tess Trueheart

          Goethe…this from the Congressional Budget office: CBO and JCT’s estimate of the net budgetary impact of the ACA’s insurance coverage provisions has changed little since the legislation was being considered in March 2010. In March 2010, CBO and JCT projected that the provisions of the ACA related to health insurance coverage would cost the federal government $759 billion during fiscal years 2014 through 2019 (10-year budget window). The newest projections indicate that those provisions will cost $710 billion over that same period. These amounts do not reflect the total budgetary impact of the ACA. That legislation includes many other provisions that, on net, will reduce budget deficits. Taking the coverage provisions and other provisions together, CBO and JCT have estimated that the ACA will reduce deficits over the next 10 years and in the subsequent decade.

          There maybe a slight change in those figures since the medical device tax will surely be gone. Under the law, “devices” mean everything from MRI machines and cardiac defibrillators to all medical supplies sold in bulk as long as they are
          sold to medical “providers” like hospitals and doctors. This was not a tax applied to the individual needs from pharmacies. Wheelchairs, eyeglasses etc are exempt. As, a result of the shutdown, 30 million dollars (10 year window) was given to the 2% and that’s not anyone reading this page.

          The Affordable Care Act includes a change in the law, effective in 2009, that expanded educational tax exclusions for amounts received by doctors and nurses under loan repayments and forgiveness programs.

          Insurance companies are required to spend a specified percentage of premium dollars on medical care and quality improvement activities, meeting a medical loss ratio (MLR) standard. Insurance companies that are not meeting the MLR standard will be required to provide rebates to their consumers

          Hospital facilities seeking to maintain THEIR 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status will have to (1) regularly perform a community health needs assessment, (2) create and publicize a financial assistance policy, (3) impose limitations on charges, and (4) adopt certain billing and collections policies. Hospitals must detail “charity care” and “community benefit” standards as tools to interpret the “charitable” requirement under Section 501(c)(3).

          The Affordable Care Act is certainly worth reading.

    • Goethe Behr

      Josh: But it’s not just poor people. It’s also young people, who think they’ll live forever, don’t foresee illness, and can’t imagine falling off a ladder. Truth is, most of them won’t contract a disease or fall off the ladder, so yes, they will be subsidizing the rest. Fair or not, that is income to the system–it’s not just poor people who don’t have insurance.

      I’m not saying it’s good. I’m just adding that to your critique.

      • Surfisher

        Goethe Behr — don’t you ever think before posting?

        Try it, kid, than perhaps you won’t look like the fool you have shown yourself to be here.

        What a non-sequitur response to Josh’s excellent post…LOL!

        • Goethe Behr

          Surf: Have you ever thought of providing a thoughtful response, or at least something germane to the discussion?

          I usually consider what someone writes, and see if I can add a comment to further the discussion. But you never say anything of substance, so I can’t really provide a constructive response, because there’s no grounds to build on. Yet, if I don’t reply, I’m sure you will think I was agreeing with you.

          Trouble is, if one just participates in your mudslinging, one is not contributing to the discussion. There are several quotes on the topic:

          FROM THE BIBLE:
          “When arguing with fools, don’t answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are.” -Proverbs 26:4 (NLT)

          INCORRECTLY ATTRIBUTED TO MARK TWAIN:
          “Never argue with an idiot. He will wear you down and beat you with experience.’

          ATTRIBUTED TO VARIOUS PEOPLE:
          “Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig will enjoy it.”

          • Goethe Behr

            Actually, there’s an even better one. Something like–

            “Never argue with a fool. Onlookers can’t tell the difference.”

            I haven’t been able to find an attribution.

          • Surfisher

            Goethe — you are a lost cause. Many here have tried, and are still trying to educate you, but to no avail.

            One can do just about anything, but put brains in a fool’s head.

            • Goethe Behr

              Surf: Rather than waste time on your idiocy, I’ll add something new. while ignoring you. So–

              Does anybody know why they had people sign up through the government site? Seems to me, that was just asking for trouble.

              It’s really the insurance companies that are going to profit from this law. Why not just have them solicit the public–in the way that phone companies sought customers after the breakup of ATT?

      • Josh

        Goethe- yeah, i thought of the ‘young people’ gap when i was writing it…good catch, wasn’t sure anyone would notice.

        Like you said, and i agree, most young people won’t have problems and won’t need health care anyway. However, you are making a huge assumption that the only way people pay for their medical costs is through insurance. There are many ways to pay…including cash, charity, loans…getting a 2nd job (i guess that would fall under either cash or loans..)

        What they’ll likely do if they don’t have coverage is pay the tax. It is likely cheaper than insurance. Been reading places where insurance for young men was going up about 100% and young women about 70%.

        This is good i guess for taxes, but the tax money doesn’t go to the providers who will have to provide them with coverage if they show up in the ER, or just don’t pay their bills. And as that NY Times article I referenced stated, Obamacare will cut in half subsidies to health care providers. So this means the costs for health care will have to go up to cover the uninsured…because providers will be getting less from the gov’t.

        As for the taxes, I don’t believe they can legally ‘earmark’ the money either, it must go into the general fund. That’s how Social Security is setup, and we all know what happened with that ‘trust fund’. Seems like i recall a radio guy talking about how Roosevelt tried the forced purchase route too for Social Security, but found it was unconstitutional to force Americans to buy something. However, the loophole is…the government can tax us for anything…including *not* doing something.

        What a crown jewel Justice Roberts turned out to be. He actually wrote in his decision on Obamacare that the government can tax you for not purchasing something in the same way it could tax you for purchasing something….that’s just crazy. Hopefully somebody will overturn that, or write some amendment that says the government can only tax actual income or activity, not the lack thereof.

        Its still true, though, that Obamacare undermines itself as far as costs are concerned…and increases them.

        Not to mention the fact that the government has no business telling me what to buy for myself.

        • samreusser

          Josh – you are correct in both your critiques of ACA, but i don’t see anyway it will be defunded until after the 2016 election and maybe not even then.

          Yes, if Democrats hadn’t manipulated that Social Security and Medicare could be borrowed from and applied to the General Fund – but instead a separate untouchable interest bearing set of funds – they would be very soluble and it might even be good times.

          there is no intention to try try and keep ACA separate. just keep taxing everyone!!!

          Obama promised to fundamentally change America and is doing so step by step, day by day, E.O. by E.O. and no one from the Democrats Party, the MSM, or even RINOs see it coming. Only TeaParty and Libertarians. He still has 3 yrs in which he can find a reason to declare Martial Law legally – then jump a quick jump to delaying any further elections.

          Just like ACA, the Democrats, MSM, and RINOs will go along with it until it is too late to do anything about it.

          • Surfisher

            samreusser — You’d appreciate this 17 minute video by Ron Paul.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKKF5vfZKaE

            Concisely describes our current state as a nation, and what will inescapably follow.

            Make it viral — America needs to wake up, to comprehend the EVIL that is the Obama Administration. And Obama’s probable endgame to declare Martial Law, and thus suspend elections and finally achieve his goal since childhood to become King (look up video 3 at minute 5:45 — he writes on his school steps “King Obama” as a child)!

            The below is a MUST SEE — “Who exactly is Barrack Hussein Obama?”

            part one:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Og0Mq9Y1PM

            part two:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1PVXH5JJ3M

            part three:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opCfsJjPq_k

          • Josh

            sam – if the usa could make slavery illegal after the dredd scott decision and if we could pass the civil rights act after jim crow laws…this can be defeated, too.

            interesting tid bit of history…it was democrats who supported Jim Crow and Dredd/Scott.

            its interesting how much on the wrong side the democratic party has always been.

            I believe it was even Andrew Jackson (democrat) who was also for the attempt at ethnic clensing of the native americans.

            seems throughout their history they have always sought to harm one group of people for the benefit of another. obamacare is just another example of it.

            its time for the rank and file members of the democratic party to make their own tea party movement!

            • Surfisher

              Josh — Ted Cruz illuminated what’s wrong with Obamacare during his heroic 21 hour stand in Senate.

              This further awoke the American people, and now we are reaping the benefits of having well over 77% of Americans against it!

              You are correct that Obamination Care could be repealed…sooner, rather than later, if enough Patriots get elected in 2014!

            • Goethe Behr

              Josh: Red herring. The “solid south” WAS Democratic until the civil rights battle of the 60s. Then, they flipped. In fact, most of the Congressmen changed parties at that time. So, when you’re speaking from a historical perspective, the Democrats before the 1960s are now Republicans, so you can’t blame either party.

              Actually, it was Eisenhower who presided over the beginning of the civil rights war–when students were guarded as they walked into the schoolhouse. My guess is that if Nixon had won in 1960, he would have carried on Ike’s policies, and the Solid South would still be Democratic. Then, your argument would be valid.

              Regarding the genocide of Native Americans, it’s not fair to point to one person. The process was supported by whites, regardless of politics.

            • Josh

              Goethe – nothing you wrote contradicted what i stated. It really doesn’t make sense for them to switch parties like that. Republicans supported the civil rights act in higher portions than democrats. Doesn’t make sense for them to switch parties for that purpose, except in a vain attempt to switch power. Maybe just throwing a fit.

              It wouldn’t make a difference though, equality started with the republican party, not the democrats. Going back to Lincoln, who started the party with abolition as a tenet.

              It is still true also that the democratic party that they have historically deliberately hurt one group to help another. Now they are hurting the entire country for its own good (at least they think it will be good) with Obamacare.

              I’m not saying people should necessarily vote republican, i think they should start reforming the democratic party.

            • Goethe Behr

              Josh: it doesn’t matter if you think it makes sense. The fact is indisputable that the Solid South flipped from solidly Democratic to solidly Republican–and they took their history with them.

            • Tess Trueheart

              President Andrew Jackson’s party was called the Democratic Republican party. The present day Republican Party did not exist at that time. His opposition was the Whig party. That is the first time I ever heard the Trail of Tears called ethnic cleansing but I think you are right.

              The Solid South was solid until President Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights bill in 1964. His quote was ” I just gave the south to the Republicans but I did the right thing”.

              Republicans have several internal wars going on right now. The Tea Party has ads running that calls the 86 (7) Republicans who voted to end shutdown”traitors” and to elect anyone (even democrat) to replace them. Right or wrong, this will be interesting to see who wins control of the grand old party.

        • Goethe Behr

          Josh: I didn’t say people only pay for medical care through insurance. I went 15 years without insurance. I was just adding the point that insuring young people should add some liquidity to the system–and, of course, they are as vulnerable as anyone else to injuries and illnesses.

          In fact, it’s more likely that young people will imitate the Jackass movies. And, my guess is that they are more likely to be careless about the risk of AIDS. Maybe Daisy could speak to that.

          You’re right that many will just ignore it. I thought the penalty was small, but I think it was Sam who pointed out that after a few years, it can be significant.

          The real irony is that if Cruz hadn’t done his publicity stunt, the shortcomings of the rollout might have caused a demand that the law be postponed, and changed along the way. It’s still possible that, now that the Cruz’s playtime is over, we can actually focus on Obamacare, instead.

          • Surfisher

            Goethe Behr — posting without thinking again, kid?

            Passing on your suppositions as “facts”…?

            Are you trying to beat out Tess Liehard for the Most Idiotic Poster Award….

            • Goethe Behr

              Surf: Somehow, not only do you not add to a discussion, but you somehow subtract from it.

            • Surfisher

              Goethe Behr — I only subtract the idiotic posts from kooks like you, kid.

            • Goethe Behr

              Surf: You are so immature.

  • Surfisher

    MUST SEE — superb 17 minute video by Ron Paul (in case you missed it, by the non-stop asinine posts by Goethe Behr — this forum’s court jester):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKKF5vfZKaE

    Concisely describes our current state as a nation, and what will inescapably follow.

    Make it viral — America needs to wake up, to comprehend the EVIL that is the Obama Administration. And Obama’s probable endgame to declare Martial Law, and thus suspend elections and finally achieve his goal since childhood to become King (look up video 3 at minute 5:45 — he writes on his school steps “King Obama” as a child)!

    The below is a MUST SEE — “Who exactly is Barrack Hussein Obama?”

    part one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Og0Mq9Y1PM

    part two:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1PVXH5JJ3M

    part three:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opCfsJjPq_k

    • Goethe Behr

      Surf: More spam messages irrelevant to the topic.

      • Surfisher

        Goethe Behr: what are you, the forum’s snitch here…?

        • Goethe Behr

          Surf: I’m just tired of your abuse. You obviously don’t care what the topic is–you just want to rant your rant on all the threads. Even Nate was moved to thump you once, and for that one day, you were contrite.

          If someone is abusing people, and abusing the site, yes, I’ll point that out, and I’ll defend the people you abuse.

          • Surfisher

            Goethe Behr — so you admit you are the forum’s snitch here.

            Don’t forget to contact the NSA and report me to them, too…..

            • Goethe Behr

              Surf: You are such a child.

          • Surfisher

            Goethe Behr — I apologize to you for being such a jerk the last few weeks!

            There is no excuse — just that the Tess Shill got my goat, and I took it also on you…Sorry!

  • Goethe Behr

    Back on topic. . .

    I found a couple of articles today which are relevant to this topic. A Huffpost article supports Nate’s premise that Obamacare is not working:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/health-care-cancelled-obamacare_n_4138129.html?ir=Business

    But another says Kentucky is doing great, and Governor Beshear says opponents are dishonest

    http://newday.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/22/ky-gov-senate-house-critics-of-obamacare-misleading-americans/

  • Surfisher

    The easiest solution TO PUT A STOP TO THIS OBAMINATION “HEALTH CARE” USURY is to impeach Obama on his failure to provide a valid Birth Certificate, which he STILL refuses to do!

    Once proven he’s not born in the USA — all his anti-American “laws” will become null and void!

    View (if you can) this 2 minute video (Kenyan Ambassador admits Obama born in Kenya):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH4GX3Otf14

    ————————————————————————————————-

    Contact Texas congressman Steve Stockman:

    326 Cannon House Office Building
    Independence Avenue
    Washington, DC 20515
    Phone: 202-225-1555
    Fax: 202-226-0396

    Call him and demand that an investigation be started in Congress ASAP as to Obama’s failure to JUST SHOW HIS ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE — not copies, since no US Citizen could get anywhere with a Copy, but MUST show the ORIGINAL (so what makes Barrack Hussein Obama ABOVE the Law NOT TO DO what WE ALL American Citizens are FORCED by LAW to do)!

    Why won’t Obama show his ORIGINAL Birth Certificate — “If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about!” (that is his mantra on the NSA spying on US)!

    Why won’t the NSA apply this to Obama — find out where he was ACTUALLY born! After all, isn’t he supposed to be just like one of us (no lower or higher than any US Citizen) — or does the NSA consider Obama their Dictator in Chief, and therefore UNTOUCHABLE?

    Surely if, We the Citizens, press our Representatives to force this issue — we may find some Patriots in Congress and Senate, that are willing to risk their cushy jobs for the SAKE of Righting a Wrong!

    So keep on calling your Reps — demand Obama gets investigated on publishing a Fake Copy of his Birth Certificate, and tell him if he fails to provide the Original, he’ll be eventually impeached and send to jail for being an Impostor!

    AND THAT’S HOW YOU STOP “OBAMACARE”: by REMOVING ITS ORIGINATOR FROM OFFICE — The Impostor Obama!